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Old 07-15-2008, 04:35 PM   #21
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
that conservative treatment sounds a bit invasive. i mean how do you get an infection inside the knee without something going inside the knee?

sounds like he might have had a little unreported (hush-hush) scope and "clean up" as soon as the season ended.

i wonder if he visited cleveland any time after the procedure. he may have caught staph.
Well, the Colts weren't exactly all forthright and honest regarding Marvin Harrison's injury last year, were they? Seems to me I recall the Colts GM saying that Harrison was pretty much all healed and his knee was fine, and the next thing you know, he's out when the game starts. Then the same scenario the next week, and the week after that, etc. If I'm not mistaken the Colts are one of those teams that lists half their roster as questionable on the injury report evry week too. At first I believed the story about Manning's knee getting worse, but you may have a point well worth considering.

p.s - thanks for the laugh regarding the visit to Cleveland!
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Old 07-15-2008, 06:15 PM   #22
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

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Originally Posted by xfl2001fan View Post
OK

Seriously, he needs to work on making quicker reads or throwing the ball away. He can't keep scrambling forever, because a few more years like last year and you won't even have an OK QB, let along the good one that he is.

Quicker reads and throwing the ball away are traits of a pocket passer. Right now, Manning is a better pocket passer, but Ben is a much better guy on the move. He's more dangerous than Manning when the play breaks down. Ben is not a great pocket passer. He moves too much. He holds on to the ball too long. He rarely throws it away. Can he stand in the pocket and throw the ball, sure. Give me 4+ seconds and I could make a few throws. However, that doesn't equate to being a good pocket passer. He needs to make better decisions with the ball when the pressure is coming from the pocket. When the play calls for him to not bootleg/roll out, he needs to either throw the ball to his target or throw it away. He plays Russion Roulette every time he scrambles away, because it's a matter of time before some lineman rolls up on his ankle or knee.

My goodness, I've stated this before. I know I have. Would anyone else like to take something I've said out of context? I'd like to have this conversation again. Really.

I took nothing out of context. You're "opinion" is that he is not a good pocket passer because he doesn't make quicker reads and doesn't throw the ball away. The major thing wrong with that statement is that you, or any other fan for that matter has no clue what the play calls are. If Bens 1st read is a deep post and it doesn't open up he must improvise. To say that he needs to get the ball out faster is crazy. How the hell do you know what the OC's play call was? You talk about studying football but you don't seem to have any real perspective. For christ sake you're a browns fan. You "should" know what kind of OC Arians is. The guy likes to go downfield with the ball. That takes time to develope. Man I can't believe you have the balls to come here and make statements like these...." I study football "... " Ben needs to work on being a pocket passer 'cause he holds the ball and moves around too much". Get a clue man. The only thing you've said about Ben that makes sense is that he is more vulnerable to injury by being so mobile. That I agree with, but I don't want him to change a damn thing!

Saying Ben needs to become a better pocket passer implies that he isn't as good as QBs who are. BULLSHIT! Someone referenced how the great Marino didn't take a lot of sacks because he was a "pocket passer". These guys who are considered true pocket passers like Marino, Bledsoe and Carson Palmer all have NO rings! Lots of stats, but who gives a rats ass about stats! Give me the rings any day! Peyton may be a great pocket passer but Ben did in 2 years what it took Peyton 9 years to do! (Ben would have done it in 1 if it wasn't for the cheatriots and their fuggin cheating!)

For your sake I hope you see the reality and accept that you have made the wrong analysis on this topic. You say you study football? Well, learn the lesson at hand!
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Old 07-15-2008, 06:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

I'll agree that play selection must play into it, but how many plays are the deep post the first read? On those plays that are, fine...there's little he can do about it.

However, I somehow doubt that everyone of his "improvised" plays was a result of the deep post being the first read. Not having access to his game film now does make things a little more difficult.

Joe Montana was a pocket passer. Tom Brady is a pocket passer. What about their fingers? Yeah, I'm sure Brady's fingers are tainted by Belicheat, but that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Whether it took Ben 2 years or 20 to get a ring, he's still only got one. That's the exact amount that Peyton has.

Rings don't necessarily make you a good QB. Bradshaw was not a great QB, but he was a decent one on a really good team. McMahon was too. Marino was a great QB on a team that was decent-good, but not great. Does Barry Sanders lack of rings mean he's a crappy HB? Players can only do the best they can with what they've got.

Ben needs to work more on his pocket skills. I'm adamant about that. He needs to learn to throw it away. I'm adamant about that. I felt the same thing about another QB who was pretty good on the move. His name is Steve Young. He got a ring, calmed down some and became on of the most efficient QBs in NFL history. I believe he has the 2nd or third best QB rating in a single season all-time. I know Peyton broke it in 2004, can't remember if Brady did last year or not.

Saying Ben needs to be a better pocket passer implies that he needs to be a better pocket passer. If you choose to read more into that, then so be it.
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Old 07-15-2008, 07:43 PM   #24
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

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Joe Montana was a pocket passer. Tom Brady is a pocket passer. What about their fingers? Yeah, I'm sure Brady's fingers are tainted by Belicheat, but that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Whether it took Ben 2 years or 20 to get a ring, he's still only got one. That's the exact amount that Peyton has.

Rings don't necessarily make you a good QB. Bradshaw was not a great QB, but he was a decent one on a really good team. McMahon was too. Marino was a great QB on a team that was decent-good, but not great. Does Barry Sanders lack of rings mean he's a crappy HB? Players can only do the best they can with what they've got.

.
ben would OWN a dink and dunk, west coast offense.

bradshaw has pretty much openly scoffed at it, admitting of course his completion percentage would be much, much higher, if he were asked to toss long hand offs the majority of the time.

just like poker players have different styles, so do nfl passin games. steelers like to make a calculated gamble with the long ball often.
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Old 07-15-2008, 08:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

I would take Ben Roethlisberger over ANY quarterback playing in the NFL right now.

He is a good pocket passer. When given time like Manning and Brady, he slices up a defense.

However when the play breaks down, he often makes something out of nothing where Brady or Manning would get sacked or throw the ball alway losing a down with no gain.
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Old 07-15-2008, 08:20 PM   #26
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

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that conservative treatment sounds a bit invasive. i mean how do you get an infection inside the knee without something going inside the knee?
Its from friction, ESPN has a video up explaining it and what happens.
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Old 07-15-2008, 08:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

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I would take Ben Roethlisberger over ANY quarterback playing in the NFL right now.

He is a good pocket passer. When given time like Manning and Brady, he slices up a defense.

However when the play breaks down, he often makes something out of nothing where Brady or Manning would get sacked or throw the ball alway losing a down with no gain.
DING DING DING!

See, this is what I'm talking about. But it sucks that some kid with just enough cribbed crap from some other site can show up and cause such a ruckus. Ben behind Brady or Manning's line last year destroys records. And the beauty is that Manning or Brady behind the Steelers line of last year crumble and have years where they toss as many picks as TD's. Anybody else watch Brady look completely lost in the Super Bowl when he was pressured? If you had your choice, would have you taken Ben or Tom in that situation? How about Peyton?

If you want to crash a board and talk shit, at least bring some juice. This stuff is way too easy XFL boy.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:41 PM   #28
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

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Originally Posted by xfl2001fan View Post
I'll agree that play selection must play into it, but how many plays are the deep post the first read? On those plays that are, fine...there's little he can do about it.

However, I somehow doubt that everyone of his "improvised" plays was a result of the deep post being the first read. Not having access to his game film now does make things a little more difficult. Again, you claim that he only improvises and doesn't throw from the pocket! When the Oline gave him time he puts the ball where it needs to be! What friggin games are you watching? It is my belief that you are NOT watching him play and are taking your rhetoric from some other hack and regurgitating it here!

Joe Montana was a pocket passer. Tom Brady is a pocket passer. What about their fingers? Yeah, I'm sure Brady's fingers are tainted by Belicheat, but that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Talk about taking things out of context! I never said a pocket passer couldn't win the SB. My point was your claim that a QB who doesn't stay in the pocket isn't as good as one who does! Whether it took Ben 2 years or 20 to get a ring, he's still only got one. That's the exact amount that Peyton has. You just don't get it do you? They might have the same amount but Ben got there faster, with a technique you claim is flawed!

Rings don't necessarily make you a good QB. Bradshaw was not a great QB, but he was a decent one on a really good team. 1st off, they don't give SB MVPs to "decent" QBs! McMahon was too. Marino was a great QB on a team that was decent-good, but not great. Does Barry Sanders lack of rings mean he's a crappy HB? You blew your whole arguement right there in that sentence! Barry Sanders was the epitome of improvisation!

Ben needs to work more on his pocket skills. I'm adamant about that. He needs to learn to throw it away. I'm adamant about that. I felt the same thing about another QB who was pretty good on the move. His name is Steve Young. He got a ring, calmed down some and became on of the most efficient QBs in NFL history. I believe he has the 2nd or third best QB rating in a single season all-time. I know Peyton broke it in 2004, can't remember if Brady did last year or not. Now here is where you really dropped the ball! Pay attention....
1991 - (1st yr as starter for 49ers) 101.8 passer rating. 1992 - 107.0 passer rating and MVP. 1993 - 122.2 passer rating. All BEFORE you claimed he calmed down and became a better QB! AND he ended his career with 4,239 rushing yards which is the second most ever gained by a quarterback, behind Randall Cunningham! But your right he was a pocket passer! No other "pocket passer" ever rushed anywhere near that amount!


Saying Ben needs to be a better pocket passer implies that he needs to be a better pocket passer. If you choose to read more into that, then so be it. The point IS.... that he doesn't need to be a better pocket passer! He already is! He just has a level of talent outside the pocket that some people(clowns fans) can't seem to fathom! If he ever gets an Oline in front of him that can really give him time he will be looked upon as one of the great QBs in the NFL! Look what he's done with a mediocre line!
That's it! I am done with you and your assanine comments. I've heard more intelligent things from the ass end of my dog than the stuff your spewin'!
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:21 PM   #29
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

When did I say that he "only improvises" and doesn't throw from the pocket?

Ben came to a more complete team when he won his SB than Peyton had in his second year. Ben was not a #1 overall pick, meaning he didn't get drafted by a bottom dweller. Ben was a curiosity and a possible insurance policy that happened to be brilliant scouting on the Steelers part.

I should have gone back to look at Young's first few seasons, I'll give you that. However, even his teammates and coaches were asking him to calm it down with the scrambling (and O-line wasn't near the issue for him as it is for Ben). They all agreed that when he did throw it away, the team (as a whole) was better off.

They gave Eli the SB MVP, so yes, they do give them to "decent" QBs.

Barry was the master of improvisation, but you mentioned rings as if it only matters. The QBs who didn't improv that you mentioned were still good QBs, they were just good QBs without rings. Barry Sanders was a great HB. Doesn't matter that he never got a ring. The ring is much more a testament to TEAM victories than individual achievements.

The reason why I brought up pocket passing QBs with rings is because you brought up pocket passing QBs without them. It was in response to your comment.

As I've stated elsewhere, for the sake of his career, he really should learn to throw the ball away more often and make quicker reads. When he begins doing that, he'll be a much more complete QB, which would be terrible for Browns fans around the world. Yes, he's a good QB. However, he has room for improvement.

Some of it is the O-line, but I've seen him hold on to the ball far longer than was necessary and then have to improvise. Those are the plays that are going to get him killed.
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: P. Manning undergoes knee surgury

I hardly want to waste my breath (or type...), but you said some things I can't ignore...

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When did I say that he "only improvises" and doesn't throw from the pocket?
Uh, that's basically what you've been saying your entire time since joining the boards.

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Ben came to a more complete team when he won his SB than Peyton had in his second year. Ben was not a #1 overall pick, meaning he didn't get drafted by a bottom dweller. Ben was a curiosity and a possible insurance policy that happened to be brilliant scouting on the Steelers part.
First sentence makes no sense, but a more complete team? Are you referring to Tommy Maddox?

Ben a curiosity? Possible insurance policy? For what!? When we drafted Ben everyone knew we had our man for the future. It just so happened that Maddox was injured very early in the season and Ben had to take over. Well, Ben didn't suck, so he started the rest of it.

We always have brilliant scouting. We do our research and make our choice. Seldom do we ever go wrong in the first round. Don't be jealous of our scouting department.

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They gave Eli the SB MVP, so yes, they do give them to "decent" QBs.
They give the MVP's to quartbacks most of the time, because, well, they lead the team. I suppose also, that you deem Super Bowl-winning quarterbacks "decent"?

Super Bowl rings do matter. Players are gauged by the rings they've earned.

The Super Bowl is the second best thing in football. Winning the the Super Bowl is the best.
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