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Old 07-18-2008, 02:14 PM   #21
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So Keith Bishop (a Pro Bowl LG) was terrible? What about the fact that from 85-89 they had 7 other players (outside of Bishop and Elway) named to the Prowbowl or called All-Pros?

In fact, in 1986 (the year of "The Drive"), they had some HB named Winder who was good enough for a Pro Bowl bid. I could be wrong, I was just getting into football then, but the name does ring a bell.

But you're right, it was all Elway. He didn't even need a team, he played O, D and ST. I think in 86 alone they had like 4 or 5 guys go to the Pro Bowl, but it was really John Elway in a different jersey.
You're right, one guy makes an OL. If his OL was so great earlier in his career, why did he get sacked 516 times? Sammy Winder? Yeah, his other stud RB around that time was the great Bobby Humphrey as I recall. Please. Elway didn't have a running game until Terrell Davis came along. And yes, it was all Elway for the Broncos at the time, whether you want to face that fact or not.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:28 PM   #22
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Holy crap people...he just posted this as a read. If you don't agree with it, don't lash out at him. He didn't write it...just wanted to post it. No harm done, right?
Calm down CB - LOL! I don't think the majority of the replies in this thread have been derogatory to xflfan. People just have a difference of opinion with regard to the Browns which is actually quite normal as this is, after all, a Pittsburgh Steelers BB.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:49 PM   #23
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You're right, one guy makes an OL. If his OL was so great earlier in his career, why did he get sacked 516 times? Sammy Winder? Yeah, his other stud RB around that time was the great Bobby Humphrey as I recall. Please. Elway didn't have a running game until Terrell Davis came along. And yes, it was all Elway for the Broncos at the time, whether you want to face that fact or not.
You made it seem like there was nobody on that team at all besides him. Often times, a Probowler will make the guys next to him that much better. Look how much worse Seattles line got after their LG went to Minnesota. Look at how much Minnesota's line improved.

They weren't chock full of good players like his line from the 90's, but they weren't necessarily all scrubs. 516 sacks is a terrible number and he absorbed a lot of punishment, no doubt about it.

Also, you forget that Elway was teamed up with a pretty good defense. I think most of their Pro Bowlers came from that side of the ball. If I remember right, each of their SB runs included a Pro Bowl DE, LB and DB. There was talent there besides himself.

BTW, I did a lil reasearch for ya. In his first 6 years in the league (83-88) he was sacked 172 times. He attempted 2654 pass attempts (6.48% sack rate)

The next 6 years (89-94) he was sacked 244 times in 2730 pass attempts (8.94%).

The next 4 years (95-98) he was sacked 100 times in 1866 pass attempts (5.36%). It looks to me like he wasn't doing nearly as bad. He was averaging 2 sacks per game over the first 6 years, nearly 3 per game over the next 6 and just shy of 2 sacks per game during his "twilight" years.

Ben's sack rate of 2.6 per game has him averaging more than Elway's average and is far greater than Elways first three years. Not only that, but his 146 attempts in 1436 attempts is putting him at 10% sack per dropback.

That percantage has increased each of the last three years (as has his fumbles).

I wouldn't count on him being as durable as Elway or Favre. There aren't many men who can stand up to that kind of beating and still be productive over the long haul.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:57 PM   #24
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You made it seem like there was nobody on that team at all besides him. Often times, a Probowler will make the guys next to him that much better. Look how much worse Seattles line got after their LG went to Minnesota. Look at how much Minnesota's line improved.

They weren't chock full of good players like his line from the 90's, but they weren't necessarily all scrubs. 516 sacks is a terrible number and he absorbed a lot of punishment, no doubt about it.

Also, you forget that Elway was teamed up with a pretty good defense. I think most of their Pro Bowlers came from that side of the ball. If I remember right, each of their SB runs included a Pro Bowl DE, LB and DB. There was talent there besides himself.
Fact remains the '86, '87 and '89 Broncos don't sniff those SBs without Elway. Period. End of story.

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BTW, I did a lil reasearch for ya. In his first 6 years in the league (83-88) he was sacked 172 times. He attempted 2654 pass attempts (6.48% sack rate)

The next 6 years (89-94) he was sacked 244 times in 2730 pass attempts (8.94%).

The next 4 years (95-98) he was sacked 100 times in 1866 pass attempts (5.36%). It looks to me like he wasn't doing nearly as bad. He was averaging 2 sacks per game over the first 6 years, nearly 3 per game over the next 6 and just shy of 2 sacks per game during his "twilight" years.

Ben's sack rate of 2.6 per game has him averaging more than Elway's average and is far greater than Elways first three years. Not only that, but his 146 attempts in 1436 attempts is putting him at 10% sack per dropback.

That percantage has increased each of the last three years (as has his fumbles).
Unlike Elway, Ben also wasn't groomed to be a QB from about 4 years of age either. Ben's best years are ahead of him, not behind him.

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I wouldn't count on him being as durable as Elway or Favre. There aren't many men who can stand up to that kind of beating and still be productive over the long haul.
After Elway's record 516 career sacks, Dave Krieg was sacked 494 times in a 19-year career. Next on the list is Randall Cunningham with 484 sacks in a 17-year career. And you're also making the very premature assumption that the Steelers line isn't going to get better from a pass blocking perspective.
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Old 07-18-2008, 03:26 PM   #25
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numbers are fun!





often times a qb risking taking a sack and making a play is the difference between making the playoffs ansd sitting at home.




Yep and look at what Eli did in the SB, as soon as the Pats defense got past the Giants OL, I thought it was over, but Eli broke out of it and he and Tyree made one of the most unbelivelable plays in SB history.
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Old 07-18-2008, 04:59 PM   #26
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Fact remains the '86, '87 and '89 Broncos don't sniff those SBs without Elway. Period. End of story.

Unlike Elway, Ben also wasn't groomed to be a QB from about 4 years of age either. Ben's best years are ahead of him, not behind him.

After Elway's record 516 career sacks, Dave Krieg was sacked 494 times in a 19-year career. Next on the list is Randall Cunningham with 484 sacks in a 17-year career. And you're also making the very premature assumption that the Steelers line isn't going to get better from a pass blocking perspective.
Take away their All-Pro DE and they don't make it either. It's still a team sport.

Those are a select few who managed to take a pounding. How many guys got knocked out long before they took that many hits? What about HoF QB Steve Young? How many unnecessary shots did he take running around? How much longer would his career have been had he not taken so many hard shots?

You're also making the premature assumption that Ben stays healthy long enough to have his best years ahead of him.
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To avoid a second post in a row, that was 1 play by a QB who has spent most of his young career being adequate. That it came at a critical juncture in the game is mostly irrelevant. What about the Steelers first SB? Wasn't the first points of the game due to a Safety? Would that QB not have been better served with throwing the ball away instead of trying to make a play?
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:03 PM   #27
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I wouldn't count on him being as durable as Elway or Favre. There aren't many men who can stand up to that kind of beating and still be productive over the long haul.
au contraire!

ben eats crown victorias for lunch and spits out the wheels and wiper blades like chicken bones.

he takes so many sacks because he can.

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Old 07-18-2008, 05:06 PM   #28
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What about HoF QB Steve Young? How many unnecessary shots did he take running around? How much longer would his career have been had he not taken so many hard shots?
I don't know, but even Steve Young lasted 14 seasons. You go ahead and keep on hoping Ben gets his career ended early. If I were a Browns fan, I probably would too.

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What about the Steelers first SB? Wasn't the first points of the game due to a Safety? Would that QB not have been better served with throwing the ball away instead of trying to make a play?
Um, Tarkenton and the Vikes were backed up deep in their own territory when Tarkenton made a quick pitch to Osborn in the Vikes' own end zone, which Osborn fumbled. Tarkenton had a choice to fall on it in the end zone taking a safety or one of our guys recovering it in the end zone for a touchdown. Had nothing to do with Tarkenton "holding it too long," as it resulted from a fumbled pitch on a running play, not a pass play.
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:15 PM   #29
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I don't know, but even Steve Young lasted 14 seasons. You go ahead and keep on hoping Ben gets his career ended early. If I were a Browns fan, I probably would too.
Young was a backup for how many? How many seasons did he not manage to play a full season?

I don't hope for his career to be shortened by injury. The only type of people I wish ill-will on are the types of people who don't deserve to be in the gene pool. Being a talented player on a rival team doesn't qualify.

Besides, I watched his little make-a-wish special that he did for that paralyzed kid. He's annoyingly talented, but seems like a really good person. I hope that the Browns get better than the Steelers as an overall team, but not for the purpose of hurting anyone.
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:17 PM   #30
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Um, Tarkenton and the Vikes were backed up deep in their own territory when Tarkenton made a quick pitch to Osborn in the Vikes' own end zone, which Osborn fumbled. Tarkenton had a choice to fall on it in the end zone taking a safety or one of our guys recovering it in the end zone for a touchdown. Had nothing to do with Tarkenton "holding it too long," as it resulted from a fumbled pitch on a running play, not a pass play.
That I wasn't aware of. I knew it was Tarkenton who took the sack, but that SB was while my parents were still in school, so my older sister was still just a twinkle in God's eye. I was the crusty stuff in the corner.
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