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Old 09-23-2008, 12:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
.

a blind eye appearantly only sees what it wants to see.
LIke ignoring the fact that McCain wanted to fix this before it got out of hand? (you called him an insider instead...)

Or that Obama now has only show himself able to lead in regards to his #1 ranking as voting liberal (real agent of change isnt he).....his #2 ranking in pork spending ....and his #2 ranking in accepting money from Freddy and Fanny...

...you can call it a turd....but it still smells like shit to those who refuse to pray to Chicago's Porcelain God.
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamberts-lost-tooth View Post
LIke ignoring the fact that McCain wanted to fix this before it got out of hand? (you called him an insider instead...)

Or that Obama now has only show himself able to lead in regards to his #1 ranking as voting liberal (real agent of change isnt he).....his #2 ranking in pork spending ....and his #2 ranking in accepting money from Freddy and Fanny...

...you can call it a turd....but it still smells like shit to those who refuse to pray to Chicago's Porcelain God.
As Obama said you can put lipstick on a pig, its still a pig.

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Old 09-23-2008, 01:21 PM   #23
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamberts-lost-tooth View Post
LIke ignoring the fact that McCain wanted to fix this before it got out of hand? (you called him an insider instead...)

Or that Obama now has only show himself able to lead in regards to his #1 ranking as voting liberal (real agent of change isnt he).....his #2 ranking in pork spending ....and his #2 ranking in accepting money from Freddy and Fanny...

...you can call it a turd....but it still smells like shit to those who refuse to pray to Chicago's Porcelain God.
pitiful deflection aside (this thread has nothing to do with obama) i guess you are devoid of any thoughts regarding john mccain's economic mentor. huh?

i dont blame you guys. if i were a staunch supporter of mccain i guess i would simply ignore the giant elephant in the room too.

after all they are both from the school of thought that the ecomomy is "fundamentally sound", that americans are just a bunch of "whiners" and that the recession is a figment of their imagination, i.e. "mental recession".

ANYWHO (get it? Horton hears a who?)-

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9246.html

McCain guru linked to subprime crisis


Quote:
The general co-chairman of John McCain’s presidential campaign, former Sen. Phil Gramm (R-Texas), led the charge in 1999 to repeal a Depression-era banking regulation law that Democrat Barack Obama claimed on Thursday contributed significantly to today’s economic turmoil.

“A regulatory structure set up for banks in the 1930s needed to change because the nature of business had changed,” the Illinois senator running for president said in a New York economic speech. “But by the time [it] was repealed in 1999, the $300 million lobbying effort that drove deregulation was more about facilitating mergers than creating an efficient regulatory framework.”

Gramm’s role in the swift and dramatic recent restructuring of the nation’s investment houses and practices didn’t stop there.

A year after the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed the old regulations, Swiss Bank UBS gobbled up brokerage house Paine Weber. Two years later, Gramm settled in as a vice chairman of UBS’s new investment banking arm.

Later, he became a major player in its government affairs operation. According to federal lobbying disclosure records, Gramm lobbied Congress, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department about banking and mortgage issues in 2005 and 2006.

During those years, the mortgage industry pressed Congress to roll back strong state rules that sought to stem the rise of predatory tactics used by lenders and brokers to place homeowners in high-cost mortgages.

For his work, Gramm and two other lobbyists collected $750,000 in fees from UBS’s American subsidiary. In the past year, UBS has written down more than $18 billion in exposure to subprime loans and other risky securities and is considering cutting as many as 8,000 jobs.

Gramm did not respond to an e-mail and was unavailable for comment, according to a UBS spokesman. The bank has no official position on the subprime crisis, the spokesman said, but is a member of the Financial Services Roundtable and other industry groups that are actively lobbying Congress on the issue.

Now, some housing experts and economists see Gramm’s thinking in the recent housing proposal from McCain, the Republican Party’s presumed presidential nominee. Gramm is often a surrogate for the Arizona senator, particularly in meetings focused on the economy. And McCain has hinted he’d consider the former Texas senator for Treasury secretary in a McCain administration.

McCain delivered an economic speech Tuesday that had Gramm's input, but it was written by domestic policy adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin.

“Sen. Gramm was one of dozens of folks whom Sen. McCain has consulted on the housing issue, including Carly Fiorina and Meg Whitman from eBay," said McCain campaign spokesman Brian Rogers. "They've been friends for years, and he values Sen. Gramm's advice."

In the speech, McCain rejected the type of aggressive government intervention in the economic meltdown that has been embraced by his Democratic opponents — and even some Bush advisers.

“I have always been committed to the principle that it is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers,”
McCain said. “Government assistance to the banking system should be based solely on preventing systemic risk that would endanger the entire financial system and the economy.”
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:23 PM   #24
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
pitiful deflection aside
I forgive you for deflecting...its all the Dems have left.

Quote:
i dont blame you guys. if i were a staunch supporter of mccain i guess i would simply ignore the giant elephant in the room too
.

I quess if you can ignore a elitist racist jackass...we should be allowed to ignore an honorable elephant.

Quote:
after all they are both from the school of thought that the ecomomy is "fundamentally sound",
Poor Tony....you only got to hear the CNN soundbyte...let someone who actually has more than 15 seconds to make a political decision help you out....McCain said that the economy was in CRISES..but that certain aspects of our economy are fundementally sound.....

Its okay...I dont mind doing the homework for you.

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ANYWHO (get it? Horton hears a who?)-
Horton needs a socialist- government controlled- health care provided- hearing aid.
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:33 PM   #25
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

Quote:
we should be allowed to ignore an honorable elephant.


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Old 09-23-2008, 02:50 PM   #26
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post


Quote:
I quess if you can ignore a elitist racist jackass


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Old 09-23-2008, 03:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

Interesting posts! Some hard feelings and insults being hurled seems a bit over the top. But, to each his own.

As stated before, I am a registered Independent, and have always voted for whom I thought would be the best candidate for the job they are basically applying for.

We have heard plenty of information from many posters for McCain, and it appears that TH is one against many. This has encouraged me to take a brief look into S.190 and McCains foray into regulatory waters. I found this bit of interesting information not mentioned before, and kindly ask for clarification.

This was a rather damning article, in my opinion, with plenty of sources, but I thought it should be open for some informative rebuttal. I'm hoping to learn more on the subject, but I don't expect this to change the opinion of anyone who has posted here.

__________________________________

The Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac show has been playing for some time now. A bill to subject Fannie and Freddie to independent regulation in 1992 to avoid problems created by possible increasing defaults, nearly faltered on objections by Sen. Jake Garn (R-UT) who wanted to amend it to shield those who purchased property from environmental clean up lawsuits. [NYT] Congressman Richard Baker (R-LA) introduced legislation in 2000 “to augment the powers of their regulator,” the measure didn't get out of committee, and attempts in 2002 and 2003 also failed. [AEI] A “weak bill” developed by Michael Oxley (R-OH) in 2004 was “blown apart just before mark up by administration opposition.” [AEI]
Senator McCain's supporters have made much of his co-sponsorship of S. 190, an attempt to reform Fannie and Freddie during the 109th Congress. However, it may well be worth remembering that this was initially Senator Charles Hagel's bill, and secondly that its provisions met with significant opposition from conservative quarters. The real “maverick” in this tale certainly could be the Man Not Running, Senator Charles Hagel (R-NE). Neither have the other two co-sponsors assumed the Maverick Label – Senators Dole and Sununu.
Senator McCain signed on as co-sponsor of Hagel's Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, urging its quick passage, [GovTrak] and this vocal support appears to be the totality of his exertions. S.190 promptly ran into controversies over policy differences between the House version (H.R. 1461, 109th) and the Senate edition in terms of housing requirements, portfolio limits, and program/product approval. [NAHB] From the National Association of Home Builder's perspective S. 190 had some serious flaws: “In contrast, (to the House version) the Senate bill, S. 190, contained many restrictive provisions that could harm the nation’s housing finance system, including: restrictions on asset holdings, discretion to raise minimum capital, burdensome program approval process, and a regulatory structure tilted away from housing. In addition, S. 190 did not require Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to set aside monies to fund affordable housing initiatives, as provided in the House-passed bill.” [NAHB] S. 190 died quietly in the Republican controlled Senate Banking Committee at the end of the 109th Congress. The stronger of the two pieces of legislation, H.R. 1461, didn't draw rave reviews either.
The American Enterprise Institute called H.R. 1461 “A GSE 'Reform” That Is Worse than Current Law.” The AEI took the following position: “Not only does it fail to improve significantly upon the regulatory authority of the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO), but it actually increases the opportunities for Fannie and Freddie to exploit their subsidies in order to expand into other areas of residential finance. While the bill makes some modest improvements to the weak regulatory structure of OFHEO today, these improvements do not bring the authority of the new regulator of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to the level currently exercised by federal bank regulators. Moreover, the deficiencies of the bill so far outweigh its modest regulatory improvements that the taxpayers and the economy generally would be better off with current law.” The House passed the bill on October 26, 2005, 331 to 90. [GovTrak] Attempts to create a compromise measure with S. 190 were unsuccessful, and when S. 190 died in committee so did H.R. 1461.


A more pertinent question for Senator McCain is why he would make much of his co-sponsorship of S. 190 in the 109th Congress, but when Senator Hagel introduced the current version of the bill, S. 1100, Senator McCain's name does not appear on the current list of co-sponsors. [Thomas] Senators Dole and Sununu continued their support from S. 190, but not Senator McCain to date. The bill was introduced on April 12, 2007 and has been referred to the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs.
Taking the point a step further, why is Senator McCain now railing against the actions of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac while employing their lobbyists in his presidential campaign? His assertion that he would vigorously pursue the reform of these two GSEs is tempered not only by his failure to continue his co-sponsorship of Hagel's legislation, but also by his use of Aquiles Suarez, a former Director of Government and Industry Relations for Fannie Mae, as an economic advisor. Charlie Black, one of McCain's top aides made at least $820,000 lobbying for Freddie Mac between 1999 and 2004. [MJ] It's harder still to take McCain Campaign assertions of “neutrality” seriously when the McCain Campaign manager, Rick Davis served as president of an advocacy group led by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that defended the two companies against increased regulation. “At least 20 McCain fundraisers have lobbied on behalf of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, netting at least $12.3 million in fees over the past nine years.” [Politico]
The advocacy group in question, Homeownership Alliance, was a lobbying association including Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, real estate agents, homebuilders, and non-profits. [MJ] This would be the self-same Homeownership Alliance on behalf of which Davis echoed the Bush Administration's talking points about the Ownership Society in 2005: “Homeownership has been a cornerstone of the country’s economic strength throughout the past decade. “State and local governments nationwide must expand their efforts to ensure that every family in America has the opportunity to own a home,” said Davis. “The more Americans we have owning homes, the stronger our economy and the greater the benefit.” [FrdMcPR] Well, as it turns out, not quite. Others have been left to try to clean up the mess created by this cheerleading in the housing sector.
The Senate Banking Committee is currently working on legislation pertaining to the operations of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and its chairman, Senator Chris Dodd (D-CT) issued a statement on September 7, 2008 concerning the Bush Administration's proposals on the subject: “There are still many unanswered questions about the Administration’s plan, and Americans deserve to know if this unprecedented proposal will help keep mortgages affordable, stabilize the markets, and protect taxpayer interests. Furthermore, we need to understand the circumstances which led the Administration to change course. Just weeks ago, Secretary Paulson testified that he thought he would never use this authority – a message he reiterated until very recently. “In the coming days, I will invite the architects of this plan to come before the Banking Committee to provide Members of Congress and the public with more information. This Administration has presided over the greatest financial crisis in 70 years. Americans need to know if this plan will alleviate, not deepen, our current economic problems.” Events in the stock market have taken the spotlight from this segment of the housing market fiasco.
Senator McCain may tout his “support” for S.190 and the “reformed” oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, but if a bill co-sponsorship and a speech are the basis for this claim, it is a thin one indeed, especially as others have equal – or even more current claims. The candidate may assert his independence on the subject, but not while using the immediate and significant services of the very lobbyists who helped create the problem in the first place. And, Senator McCain may wish us to believe that he is a “Maverick-Reforming-Deregulator” but his underlying philosophy hasn't been seriously challenged by his occasional forays into regulatory waters. In the process of campaigning in these waters, Senator McCain is asking us all to lend credence into one rather large Fish Story.

________________________________________

Thanks for reading! I'm hoping to keep it civil.
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Old 09-23-2008, 04:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

At least people are digging deep here...which is good. And, believe me, with a voting record as long as McCains there will be plenty to find.

Let's simplify, since I see people trying to trump things that happened in 05 with things that occurred in 99 . It doesn't work that way unless you own a wayback machine. '05 is more recent then '99, if you didn't know...

Also, someone help me out here. If 190 is so bad, why is it bad that McCain has apparently distanced himself from it? Or did he? Is it really that bad? And did he really distance himself in the first place? And how can a house bill be called into question when McCain is in the senate? Those dots are awful hard to connect...(Mary Poppins) Spin spinnery, spin spinnery, spin spin spurry! There is some real obfuscation going on here, and the last article REALLY stretched things a bit by tying McCain to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae by tying his SUPPORTERS to the lobbyists...that skips a step. What about DIRECT PAC/lobby contributions to the candidates?

You'll find that both Clinton (whom Obama has at least claimed to take on as an adviser in this matter) and Obama himself have received more campaign support from these entities than McCain.

The problem with wielding a a two-edged sword is that it cuts both ways...
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:45 AM   #29
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

s190 was NOT bad.......Steelerstrengths article is obviously full of good information but also just as obviously slanted to the left.

For instance....

Quote:
s190...contained many restrictive provisions that could harm the nation’s housing finance system, including: restrictions on asset holdings, discretion to raise minimum capital, burdensome program approval process,
These things being called "restrictive" is purely opinion and not fact.

I think even those who havnt looked very deep into this crisis can see that Fannie and Freddie were, in fact, incredibly lenient in approving loans ...and the inability of some to keep up with their mortgage payments..and the subsequent default of those loans is the core issue.

In fact, "budensome approval process" was the class warfare term being thrown around at the time by people like Barney Frank....making it look as if the bill as discrimatory against certain ethnic groups and against the poor. (Yes ..as ridiculous as it sounds...the arguement was that it discrimanated against those who..COULDNT AFFORD THE LOANS)

There are also misleading statements in the article such as...

Quote:
A more pertinent question for Senator McCain is why he would make much of his co-sponsorship of S. 190 in the 109th Congress, but when Senator Hagel introduced the current version of the bill, S. 1100, Senator McCain's name does not appear on the current list of co-sponsors. [Thomas] Senators Dole and Sununu continued their support from S. 190, but not Senator McCain to date
The writer of the article makes an illogical assumption that "sponsership" and "support" are the same thing. If that was the case, there would be hundreds of "sponsers" on all favorable bills. The last time I looked it was not necessary to sponsor every bill that you voted in favor of.

...and as has already been pointed out...the writer of the article is technically taking McCain to task for NOT supporting a bill (through non-sponsoprship?)...that the writer later paints in a negative light. (Wouldn't the writer think this to be a positive thing?)

The article even makes a totally opinionated and incredibly arbitrary statement that McCain cannot be a "maverick" since he hasnt added his name as a co-sponser.


Also...as has become typical of the media left...there are several "tie-ins" with McCain and some his staff and fundraisers with Freddie and Fanny...but noticeably missing is the other side of that finger-pointing that would have made the article at least seem "neutral". Specifically the fact that Obama is MORE directly tied into this mess as the senator ranked #2 in accepting money from Fannie and Freddie...and in the fact that Obama has a past CEO of the now defunct Lehman Brothers and a past CEO of AIG on his BUDGET team....two people who made up to 20 MILLION off of bad loans ...who are now going to "Fix" our countries budget woes.

appreciate the article for its facts...but as usual with todays "news"....its more of an op-ed then it is "coverage" of a story.
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:19 AM   #30
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Default Re: McCain "Don’t know much about economy"

Upon further review, in searching for root causes, I've run across some interesting stuff about how it was actually Clinton who started this whole mess by unleashing Freddie and Fannie, letting them run like private companies with government sponsorship. Housing numbers were stagnant around 64% from '68-93, and peaked in 2005 at 69%.

Food for thought...
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