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Old 09-23-2008, 09:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

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The politicians are power first... money second. Wall Street is money first, power second.

Maybe I should have said money hungry/POLITICAL power hungry.
.
ok. it was pretty evident thats what you meant, but i wanted to make sure. its worthy to note that the waters are muddied. one rarely gains political power w/o the capital to back them.

if its a "chicken or the egg" scenario, money always supercedes political power. but i definitely see whqat youre saying.

i kinda liken this whole mess to the regulation of tobacco. i mean im still gonna buy the shitsticks of death until i personally decide to quit, but DONT hide the FACT that it causes cancer, in the name of protecting big tobacco's profit margin.

these mortgage brokers handing out loans was like tobacco executives handing out packs of cigs to 5th graders as they left school for the day and saying "theres no risk. this will make you feel good."

im as "pro-capitalism" as anyone, but i dont mind paying taxes, and i dont mind regulation.

a big problem in this country is that left vs. right is becoming marginalized as pro- communism vs. pro- anarchy.

balance is key, as the scales of freedom suggests.

i believe in a political ebb and flow. it has ebbed, and now it is time to flow.
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:24 AM   #12
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

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ok. it was pretty evident thats what you meant, but i wanted to make sure. its worthy to note that the waters are muddied. one rarely gains political power w/o the capital to back them.

if its a "chicken or the egg" scenario, money always supercedes political power. but i definitely see whqat youre saying.

i kinda liken this whole mess to the regulation of tobacco. i mean im still gonna buy the shitsticks of death until i personally decide to quit, but DONT hide the FACT that it causes cancer, in the name of protecting big tobacco's profit margin.

these mortgage brokers handing out loans was like tobacco executives handing out packs of cigs to 5th graders as they left school for the day and saying "theres no risk. this will make you feel good."

im as "pro-capitalism" as anyone, but i dont mind paying taxes, and i dont mind regulation.

a big problem in this country is that left vs. right is becoming marginalized as pro- communism vs. pro- anarchy.

balance is key, as the scales of freedom suggests.

i believe in a political ebb and flow. it has ebbed, and now it is time to flow.
See... I don't think it has ebbed or flowed. The water has begun to move sideways and no one knows what to do about it. Instead, they just blame the other side and try to make political hay out of it.

We are in a new financial world-- have been for about 15 years. There are new rules in this world, but we don't know what they are.

Worse yet, there is so much rhetoric out there that it is virtually impossible to quantify anything and thus come up with answers. I fear we are headed for a major depression, not because the market justifies it, but because the rhetoric drives fear. The biggest contributer to the last depression? Not because the market crashed, but because of the loss of confidense. Not one dollar disappeared from the system. People were jusrt afraid to spend anything they had.

The problem is, we don't know how that will play out in a new set of rules in this new "super-state" economy.
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

i think this is a thread we all are in agreement. i came across this, that adresses "why the rush"?

http://edsops.blogspot.com/

Quote:
Disaster Capitalism

Jim Mitchell, in The Dallas Morning News Opinion blog, says it's irrelevant whether Barack Obama or John McCain warned against the recent financial meltdown on Wall Street or even whether either has a plan to fix the mess. Mitchell says the crisis is upon us, events are moving too fast, and political talking points are mere distractions to the decisions that have to be made now.

The urgency Mitchell feels is exactly how the Bush administration wants Americans to feel about the crisis. The Bush administration, through the Treasury Department and its Secretary Henry Paulson, is rushing through a $700 billion bailout plan, pressuring Congress to act swiftly, without due consideration, without input. Taxpayers ought to be very suspicious of the Bush administration's haste. Check out this sentence buried in the administration's plan:

"Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."

If that doesn't scare the daylights out of you, I've got a bridge to nowhere in Alaska to sell you. Taxpayers would do well to read The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, a 2007 book by Naomi Klein. Klein details how practitioners of Milton Freidman's free market economics have exploited (and in some cases, even created) disasters and upheavals in order to impose their radical policies on shocked societies. Chile, Russia, Iraq, even New Orleans after Katrina, all have seen wholesale imposition of economic shock therapy. The beneficiaries of this are a narrow group of the economic elite who control the companies adept at profiting from disasters (think Halliburton and Blackwater). The losers are the devastated communities left picking up the pieces of a destroyed economy and infrastructure. That section of the bailout plan quoted above is the kind of license the free marketers give themselves in order to take advantage of the chaos in a market collapse. Congress would do well to resist being stampeded into hasty action by an administration whose primary interest may be in applying another dose of economic shock therapy, this time on the American economy itself. They were responsible for the disaster. Now they are exploiting it. It's how disaster capitalism works. Read the book.
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

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i think this is a thread we all are in agreement. i came across this, that adresses "why the rush"?

http://edsops.blogspot.com/
I do want it all to slow down, but I think that last quote is a bit of alarmism mixed in with some truth.

I look at it from a different point...
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"Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."
Is a result of congress investigating EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN... As a result, the exec. branch is now moving to protect themselves from that investigation/witch hunt. The fact is, these witch hunts have to stop... from the left AND the right, because they are causing horrible results.

It goes back to my last post. With so much rhetoric and idiocy thrown out by both parties, there is no ability to properly quantify what truth is, or what has really happened. EVERYTHING is spun for political gain.

For instance, the above quote can be spun by the left for Bush paying off his friends before he leaves office, and spun by the right as a result of the dem's trying to investigate everything in search of an acorn.

In both cases, there is no objective ability to have a discussion, because real-politik raises its ugly head.


I do think there is LEGITIMATE reason to move quickly. I do think this is a crisis. BUt I think the reason BOTH parties are moving TOO fast is because BOTH parties are afraid of blow-back on their election candidates, since BOTH parties have their hands too far into the pie to come out clean.
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

But Preach; NON-REVIEWABLE? Sorry. Our government is based on checks and balances, and this leaves neither.
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

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But Preach; NON-REVIEWABLE? Sorry. Our government is based on checks and balances, and this leaves neither.
I am not arguing that is good... just that it is a result. It is where BOTH parties have driven politics.
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

I disagree. NO appointee should have that much authority. Not in this country. That is tantamount to imperialism, totalitarianism, whatever you want to name it.

Why would you want to surrender to a higher EARTHLY power?
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

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I disagree. NO appointee should have that much authority. Not in this country. That is tantamount to imperialism, totalitarianism, whatever you want to name it.

Why would you want to surrender to a higher EARTHLY power?
Mosca...

I think you are spoiling for a fight that I am not offering....

Please re-read my posts.

You and I agree. I am just saying that this is cause and effect, this wording is the effect of the political bickering.

I am not placing any value, good or bad on it in this discussion. Only looking at the WAY we got here.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

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Mosca...

I think you are spoiling for a fight that I am not offering....

Please re-read my posts.

You and I agree. I am just saying that this is cause and effect, this wording is the effect of the political bickering.

I am not placing any value, good or bad on it in this discussion. Only looking at the WAY we got here.

Hey, I should have put at the end of that "earthly power"; it was meant as a jibe, not an insult, sorry.

My point is that lack of oversight is exactly how we got here, and continuing that doesn't work. If our society acts like an organism, there has to be something regulating the interactions, and the systems need to have feedback. Too much regulation and you get all feedback and no action, like being in a coma; not enough regulation you get all action with no feedback, unchecked growth as in cancer. There's no reason to surrender any and all oversight to one person.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:35 PM   #20
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Default Re: Conservative Gregg Easterbrook takes Both Dems and Reps to task for crisis

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Hey, I should have put at the end of that "earthly power"; it was meant as a jibe, not an insult, sorry.

My point is that lack of oversight is exactly how we got here, and continuing that doesn't work. If our society acts like an organism, there has to be something regulating the interactions, and the systems need to have feedback. Too much regulation and you get all feedback and no action, like being in a coma; not enough regulation you get all action with no feedback, unchecked growth as in cancer. There's no reason to surrender any and all oversight to one person.

I didn't take it as an insult... I knew it was a friendly jibe...

What I meant by spoiling for a fight was that I thought (and still think) that you think I am supporting the choice to make it non-reviewable.

I wasn't and am not. I am only trying to track how it came to manifest, and my thoughts are that it came because of the intense political scene.

As a result, in order to back away from it and not get into another partisan battle, the current partisan battles need to be put away. The rhetoric needs to cease, and good, strong, tough FAIR AND HONEST questions need to be asked of BOTH candidates and parties.

Furthermore, the rewriting of history every 2 years to favor one's particular viewpoint must cease.

Here is an example from both sides.

1. Bush lied about WMD. The facts are that almost every western nation had the same facts and came to the same conclusions about Iraq having WMD. Bush didn't lie. He and the rest of the western world were misled by Iraq in general and Saddam in particular.

2. Dems are peaceniks that don't care about our national security. But after 9-11, there wasn't more than one or two national democrats that opposed a war. Matter of fact, many dems opposed the war in Iraq because they thought it would draw from the war in Afganistan.

Yet... in both cases, those truths have been twisted into the mantra first given, and both of them are QUITE damning, both here and abroad. Now, when it comes to the bailout...

my thoughts are that RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY... (and I think wrongly), Bush wants to avoid this political game by not allowing it to be a football tossed back and forth and having things added on and carved out... and not allowing for a show-boat-poltical forum to start casting stones in both directions, which is EXACTLY what happened in the 9-11 commission.

THAT is what I am saying.
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