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Old 10-15-2008, 07:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

Can't go on with this tonight...I have people coming over to watch the debate.
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

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Evolution is ever changing. There are new developments all the time. When we see sexual maturity in a species evolve from a few years to less than one in just a generation or two, it forces scientists to revisit the whole "theory" again. AND evolution worked forwards, not backwards. Darwin wasn't trying to find data to fit his conclusions, his conclusions were derived from observed data. Creationism accepts facts that fit it's preconceived conclusion, and ignores or dismisses the facts that don't fit. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle was arrived at after all other possibilities were exhausted.
No.

Darwin observed facts, and then placed them in a popular philosophy of the day known as hegelian dialectical theory. Physical science wasn't the only science to pick up the philosophy. However, it seems to be the only science to not discard it after further study. My guess is because it fit preconceived directions within the larger culture.
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

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Can't go on with this tonight...I have people coming over to watch the debate.



and I have a bible study to teach tonight!

You know, maybe we should find a way to take this to a private forum, that way we can have a good, ongoing discussion. I enjoy these discussions.
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

Almost every civilization has used Religion as some form of control, with the religious leaders destroying products that do not fit their mold when the leaders become more fascinated with the power than the actual job of being a religious leader.

This is true of Christianity from several hundred years ago (think the Spanish Inquisition). You see it in the from of Muslim extremists today. The Jews were particularly bad during Jesus time with the Saduces and Pharisees (terrible at spelling these names).

Ultimately, blind faith is pure ignorance. Leaders who care for power prefer that.

Personally, I do believe in God. I also believe that, since we are made in His image, it's only right that we use the intellect He gave us. That means that we should use our intellect to question everything around us. If He wanted blind faith, He'd have made us robots.

So use your intellect to reason your way through what some very intelligent men and women have guestimated about the Earth. Yeah it's still a guess, but one that's been accepted by a large group of people who generally question everything.

It's generally accepted that Earth has gone through an Ice Age. How do we get out of an Ice Age? It takes Global Warming. Maybe we're not helping things along...hard to tell.

Personally, it seems much more like Global Shifting to me. It seems like the seasons are a month or so late each year. Each season seems to come a little later, but still last as long.

These are merely the observations of a non-science and non-religious nut. I dabble in both because I suffer from ADHD I think. LOL
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:00 AM   #15
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

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Science has been marginalized by several factors that I won't get into, but we desperately need to add a TON of emphasis to math and science in this country if we want to stay even competitive, let alone lead the World in innovation.
I agree with what you are saying as far as increasing the education but the problem is that in most states you've got this testing system (in FL it's called the FCAT) which if the kid's don't pass they don't graduate. Teachers are now teaching for this test and not the real world. These series of tests have diminished the teacher's abilities to really get into subjects and do what they're suppose to do - TEACH!!!
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:23 AM   #16
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I agree with what you are saying as far as increasing the education but the problem is that in most states you've got this testing system (in FL it's called the FCAT) which if the kid's don't pass they don't graduate. Teachers are now teaching for this test and not the real world. These series of tests have diminished the teacher's abilities to really get into subjects and do what they're suppose to do - TEACH!!!
Very true. But how do you measure the effectiveness of teachers or schools? You test to measure but that has a consequence. I get in this fight a lot, not that this is a fight here. Someone defends a proposal for what it is designed to do and refuses to discuss what other, unintended but predictable things it will also do. Like vouchers.

Back to science and religion. If the Bible didn't exist, would the creation story and it's supposed time frame be anyone's hypothesis based on any discoverable facts? If so, what are those facts?
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:51 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

I make no pretense about being open minded on this issue; I don't have to be. Science is vital to our national interests, and science is best served by reporting accurate results.

To agree to open it for discussion is to lose the benefits of science.

I think we should start by debating the evidence for and against Christianity. Once we have settled that issue, along with positive physical proof, then we can turn our eyes to science. One thing at a time, after all.
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:57 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

not exactly the intention i was thinking this thread would go in but whatever.

90% of all scientists living in asia is startling. to remain a global power i would hope we can do something to get that number up here in the US as opposed to the continued dumbing down of america .

for one theres a referendum in my town to raise taxes for Spaceport America. i will definitely be voting in favor of it. (about 10 bucks a year- more if you buy alot of expensive high end items).

im just glad that either obama or mccain will be more science friendly than bush.

of course lets not update any planetarium projectors for school kids. God forbid
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:01 AM   #19
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

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No.

Darwin observed facts, and then placed them in a popular philosophy of the day known as hegelian dialectical theory. Physical science wasn't the only science to pick up the philosophy. However, it seems to be the only science to not discard it after further study. My guess is because it fit preconceived directions within the larger culture.
Part of the reason I read message boards is to learn new things from people who have a different perspective to me, and I'm sure others enjoy these discussions as well. Taking this off the board seems counterproductive to me...

As far as dialectical theory goes, it's intersting that you bring that up because it can neither be proven nor disproven, which runs a very close parallel to many religious views.

As far as applying it Darwin's Theory of evolution, the main problem with equating the two is that Darwin himself was a creationist and actually set out to prove creationism when he embarked on the Beagle (Creationsim was the prevailing theory of the day). Evolution was a revolutionary leap, something new from where there was nothing before, and while it could be conceived as the opposite of the previous metaphysical, anti-dialetic previaling view, evolution itself is not dialetic just because the conclusions it draws are anti-dialetic.

This is getting deep...

Oh, and I also wanted to chime in on standardized testing. I hear this over and over and over again, and it's startling. It seems the focus of all education now is geared towards making sure students pass these tests. That seems fine prima facia, but in the process kids are not being taught how to think, they are simply being taught what material they are going to be tested on. It all comes back to critical thinking and learning how to observe data and synthesizing new knowledge...and we are failing our children in this regard.
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:21 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sciencedebate 2008

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not exactly the intention i was thinking this thread would go in but whatever.

90% of all scientists living in asia is startling. to remain a global power i would hope we can do something to get that number up here in the US as opposed to the continued dumbing down of america .

for one theres a referendum in my town to raise taxes for Spaceport America. i will definitely be voting in favor of it. (about 10 bucks a year- more if you buy alot of expensive high end items).

im just glad that either obama or mccain will be more science friendly than bush.

of course lets not update any planetarium projectors for school kids. God forbid

I have four kids from 19 to 6. Just in that time the elementary school, while adding many computers, has dropped labs. It's all text work. There needs to be an understanding that we will never have the cheapest labor. We will never be a factory economy again. We need to be a tech economy and for that we need to have the brightest. That has to be part of the culture. Intelligence has to be a virtue. Joe straight A's and Joe physics needs some attention. Joe six-pack and Joe the plumber have had their 15 minutes.
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