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Old 03-11-2009, 10:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

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Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
Now you have to ask "why" this move has been made.

They answer? IMO, it is a hedge for the pro-choice crowd. Even though abortion itself doesn't really enter in to the debate, the ramifications do. By allowing fertilized eggs to be used in stem cell work, the government has (again) established that life doesn't begin at conception. Thus, abortion, at least at somepoint within the first trimester, is ok.

In order to overturn abortion, now stem-cell research also falls into the picture.

In the end, it is nothing more than a way to interweave and thus, solidify voting blocs.
Oh, there is no doubt this decision has nothing to do with saving lives or advancing science: It's 100% political. AND it has the added effect of being a rare case where he breaks entirely with Bush, because his supporters (The ones who admit that he has adopted a ton of Bush policies wholesale, none of whom apprently post on THIS message board) are all over him for being too Bush-like.
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Old 03-11-2009, 12:20 PM   #22
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

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Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
The more I've been reading, the more I'm discovering that Obama screwed up the embryonic stem cell reversal. Not for any religious reasons, but simply because it's not bearing any fruit.

The private funding has all been funneled towards the adult stem cell research because that's the area that has shown the most promise, so, effectively, Obama is now asking the public to fund research that just doesn't show much future upside.
This is not much different than the government giving grants ONLY to scientists that find human impact to be the major cause of climate change.

Bottom line, the government shouldn't be funding things that show no promise...
Not really. Everything I've ever read about stem cell research indicates that working with adult stem cells is more difficult and has more potential problems. Embryonic stem cells are easy to work with; they can be developed into any kind of specific cell, and you can grow an unlimited supply of them. Adult stem cells are mostly specialized already into specific cell types, so they're harder to reprogram and you mostly have to get the specific type you're looking for ahead of time. And they die out, so you have a hard time getting enough of them.

Probably most importantly, they have a very hard time getting adult brain or nerve stem cells (for obvious reasons), which sets back their efforts to cure a lot of the worst diseases and injuries they'd been hoping to use stem cells for. So far they THINK they can do a lot of the same things as embroyonic stem cells with bone marrow or umbilical cord cells, but so far they just THINK that and again, there's a limited supply.

Bottom line, if I was paralyzed from a spinal cord injury and you told me that even though we could do two kinds of research to try and find a cure, you thought we should shut down one kind of research because you're religious and have a problem with "destroying" embryos that were going to die anyway, I would tell you you'd be serving society better if you took your ignorant, self-important ass out into the street and walked it into oncoming traffic.

Not you in particular, and I know your argument wasn't about religion. It's just that the scientific AND religious arguments against it are both stupid, and you hear a lot more of the religious arguments because they can't actually be proven scientifically wrong.
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Old 03-11-2009, 12:49 PM   #23
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

This isn't the point. There has never been any directive from the US Government to block PRIVATE funding of stem cell research. Private companies will pour money into research that seems more promising, and so far, no real breakthroughs have been derived from embrionic stem cells, while there have been myriad developments from adult stem cell research.

The VAST majority of private funding (which, bear in mind, can go in either direction at the discretion of the funding entity, which naturally stands to profit from results) has been funneled toward adult stem cell research. Now we are UNNECESSARILY pouring public money that is desperately needed elsewhere into funding things that the market has already decided isn't worth investing in.

As for the drawbacks of adult stem cells, I found this from an op/ed piece by Kathleen Parker:

The insistence on using embryonic stem cells always rested on the argument that they were pluripotent, capable of becoming any kind of cell. That superior claim no longer can be made with the spectacular discovery in 2007 of "induced pluripotent stem cells" (iPS), which was the laboratory equivalent of the airplane. Very simply, iPS cells can be produced from a skin cell by injecting genes that force it to revert to its primitive "blank slate" form with all the same pluripotent capabilities of embryonic stem cells.
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/fromcomments/283747.php
(I use the existing article because it's succinct).

The religious angle is silly to me, of course, but it's a good argument that just because religious people make a lot of whacky assertions doesn't mean that they are never right...
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Old 03-11-2009, 01:24 PM   #24
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

Look, if it really is only about science, I think you're being way too quick to write off the chances of embryonic stem cells doing any good. Especially when research on them has been constricted for basically the entire time we've had the technology to do useful things with them. In fact, I'm not surprised there have been more advances in the adult line of research, since there's been more available to work with there. I'm not surprised that more private money goes toward it either, since there are less restrictions and a better "support network" there; you don't have to risk the government and others butting in on whatever you do.

Yes, they've made a few important discoveries with adult stem cells, but a lot of the "breakthroughs" people are excited about did nothing more than get adult stem cells to do the same kinds of things that embryonic stem cells do already with no special inducement. And there's nothing indicating that any future discoveries, especially with equal attention and access to funding, are going to be limited to one line of research or the other. If you're interested in pure science, or in doing the most public good, it's never smart to eliminate options unless they've been proven wrong. And in this case neither one has been.

Could adult stem cells be the answer someday? Sure. But there are also problems. One thing that comes to mind immediately is that cells can only divide so many times (about 30) before they die or stop functioning properly; that's why people get old and die themselves. So for a lot of applications related to the elderly, there's a potential huge setback because if you're working with their own adult stem cells (the preferred way to do it), those cells would just die themselves in short time. As far as I know, no one has figured out how they're going to overcome that. And that's just one issue as an example; I am sure there are plenty of others on both sides.

Point is, while the book is still open -- and in this case there's little doubt that it is -- you can't assume what's going to happen and you can't decide one part of the field should be killed off. Could you have predicted 10 years ago where stem cell technology would be today? Probably not. It'll be the same way 10 years from now too.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:03 PM   #25
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

Maybe if Obama had turned up several years ago, I wouldn't have wasted money on watching Star Wars Episode II - Attack of the Clones. That was just wrong on so many levels of wrongness.

And yep, I have nothing intellectual to add to this debate (no change there then!) 'cause I don't really care either way. Whatever I say/think/do will have absolutely no bearing on the outcome whatsoever - And let's be honest.......there are a lot more pressing matters around at the moment.

But I'll leave you with Dolly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_(sheep)

That's just some scarey sci-fi sh*t right there.

Maybe cloning an honest banker would be a good start in todays world.......but then, you'd have to find an honest one to kick start proceedings......and that'll be harder than watching a good Lucas movie in the last 10 years.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

Here is my point: Using government (i.e. taxpayer) money to fund something the private investors shy away from (for a reason) is foolish. It's throwing good money after bad.

And Obama did this SOLELY for political reasons. He's kowtowing to his liberal base, ostensibly because he's alienated them so much by being such a "Bushie".
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Old 03-13-2009, 07:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

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I can't tell whether you're being serious about that part or not, though I suppose it's more than likely given your occupation. I'll just say that if so, I disagree, but on the other hand, anyone but an idiot ought to know cloning people isn't cool.
The guy approves of partial birth abortion ,its not safe to assume anything about him. I guess we now know where his line is drawn for the time being anyway. I am sure he could be swayed for the right price.
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Old 03-15-2009, 12:38 PM   #28
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

So what did he do exactly?

Obama's Stem Cell Policy Hasn't Reversed Legislative Restrictions
On Wednesday, President Obama signed a law that bans federal funding of any research that leads to the destruction of human embryos just two days after lifting Bush-era restraints on it.


President Obama may have abolished contentious Bush-era restraints on federal funding of stem cell research on Monday, but a legislative obstacle still remains for scientists seeking more money.

A spending bill that Obama signed on Wednesday explicitly bans federal funding of any "research in which a human embryo or embryos are destroyed, discarded, or knowingly subjected to risk of injury or death," language that pertains to creation of new stem cell lines.

This provision, known as the Dickey-Wicker amendment, was included in the 465-page omnibus spending bill that will fund government agencies through September. The amendment is a measure Congress has included in spending bills in every fiscal year since 1996.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...sional-action/
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: Obama did THIS right!

Wait a second....if I'm reading that right, he reversed Bush's "failed policy", then turned around two days later reversed his own reversal, meaning that he is.....um.....once again parroting more Bush policies.

Really?

Really...
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:02 PM   #30
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