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Old 04-06-2009, 06:59 PM   #21
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

We are cancelling the F22, there has to be something better already being tested in White Sands or NOT in Area 51.

Pretty sure Lockheed Martin is confident in the fact that eventually, Republican "Kill them All" Types will be back in power soon enough. What's 4 - 8 years of testing while getting ready for the Z 88 or whatever the heck they name the latest and greatest. Sure in the short tearm (4 years) a few hundred people get laid off, but the re-hire when the War Mongers are back in power will be enough to keep the company a float for sure.
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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I'm not confusing the two, so much as I think North Korea's military is probably pretty incompetent as well. All their public displays of might have gone wrong, and the country usually barely even has enough essential supplies to make it through the week, much less wage a war. They strike me as kind of like Iraq's army before the first Gulf War -- lots of soldiers, but not very effective and with probably no air power to speak of. Any modern army would probably crush them.

It would be a little worrisome if they were getting shit from China, but judging by how well their last rocket launch went, it doesn't look like it. But in either case, countries like China and Russia might sell some weapons to other countries, but notice how they never give them enough help that they can be as effective as China or Russia themselves. That's been the pattern for decades.
You make some good point . .

I'll tell you what really scares me about N. Korea.

At the first sign of trouble... they are going to pour everything they have into S. Korea. It will be VERY bloody.
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Originally Posted by Dino 6 Rings View Post
We are cancelling the F22, there has to be something better already being tested in White Sands or NOT in Area 51.

Pretty sure Lockheed Martin is confident in the fact that eventually, Republican "Kill them All" Types will be back in power soon enough. What's 4 - 8 years of testing while getting ready for the Z 88 or whatever the heck they name the latest and greatest. Sure in the short tearm (4 years) a few hundred people get laid off, but the re-hire when the War Mongers are back in power will be enough to keep the company a float for sure.
lets keep it real here and not cloud the facts with semantics. the f-22 itself nor the program is being canceled. just a total order for 381 of them. i mean its one thing for a 4 star general to say we are adding that many to the arsenal, but the bottom line lies with the DoD and ultimately congress and the prez.

the next war we see, will showcase the raptors, front and center. they are replacing the retired stealth fighters (which are already sitting on a pad in the desert of nevada). hell they may already be at their final resting place in the graveyard at davis monthan afb.

by all accounts the f-117's were outdated. they were just about impossible to fly. they pretty much flew on computer controlled auto pilot because they were such a freak of physics, they never belonged in the air in the 1st place. i have pretty much had pilots tell me "you dont fly them, it flies you".

our current fleet of raptors arent going anywhere. by all accounts they cant be rendered obsolete, and no country will catch up, for the next 20 years. that buys us enough time.

by the same token, our 50 year old b-52 program is just as relevant today as it was 50 years ago, and still hasnt been rendered obsolete either. doesnt mean our DoD budget contains funds for 100 new ones though. at some point enough is enough, and i think that is what is being said about the 187 raptors going forward.
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:55 PM   #24
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post
lets keep it real here and not cloud the facts with semantics. the f-22 itself nor the program is being canceled. just a total order for 381 of them. i mean its one thing for a 4 star general to say we are adding that many to the arsenal, but the bottom line lies with the DoD and ultimately congress and the prez.

the next war we see, will showcase the raptors, front and center. they are replacing the retired stealth fighters (which are already sitting on a pad in the desert of nevada). hell they may already be at their final resting place in the graveyard at davis monthan afb.

by all accounts the f-117's were outdated. they were just about impossible to fly. they pretty much flew on computer controlled auto pilot because they were such a freak of physics, they never belonged in the air in the 1st place. i have pretty much had pilots tell me "you dont fly them, it flies you".

our current fleet of raptors arent going anywhere. by all accounts they cant be rendered obsolete, and no country will catch up, for the next 20 years. that buys us enough time.

by the same token, our 50 year old b-52 program is just as relevant today as it was 50 years ago, and still hasnt been rendered obsolete either. doesnt mean our DoD budget contains funds for 100 new ones though. at some point enough is enough, and i think that is what is being said about the 187 raptors going forward.
Tony. . . if you were that rational and logic in your political posts... We'd be having GREAT discussions.

I think you are absolutely right. The only thing that worries me is the idea of replacement planes. While the B-52's are so basic that they can probably be rolled off a ford plant still, the new planes are so specialized that it becomes quite difficult to keep using and re-using them through the years.

I wouldn't mind seeing 2 or 3 being made every year or two just to maintain the fleet. Start in say, 5 years if we don't have anything new coming on line at that point.
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

nobody here has been rational and logical in their political posts. (i will give a slight edge to revs).

"when in rome...", right?

Quote:
wouldn't mind seeing 2 or 3 being made every year or two just to maintain the fleet. Start in say, 5 years if we don't have anything new coming on line at that point.
case in point- the stealth f-177. it was a door wedge that shouldnt even be up in the air. now compare that with the video killer provided of the raptor.

its like the 1st plane flown at kittyhawk being compared to the sopwith camel.

the stealth didnt need 2-3 every year for replenishment. i know one was lost in the bosnia conflict, and another in iraq vol. I. plus one crashed into a trailor park here (bad shit always happens to trailor parks- Timma Slumberzzz case in point). other than that, the fleet was maintained.

current estimates say we are spending 2 billion dollars a day (?) to replenish all the shit we are using up in iraq and afghan. this goes from tanks to combat boots and kevlar.

so every month over there is literally knocking dozens of these magnificent planes (war machines) off of our budget. somethings gotta give, and unfortunately it is the raptor.

i tell you what, watching them every day definitely gives you an appreciation of them. you should hear the errie ominous *whirrrrr* when they fire up for take off. and the sonic boom heard for miles is outta this world.

i nearly shit my pants atleast 2X per week (and i dont scare easilly). then again, im not used to what sounds like bombs dropping 100 feet away.
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:27 AM   #26
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Tony. . . if you were that rational and logic in your political posts... We'd be having GREAT discussions.

I think you are absolutely right. The only thing that worries me is the idea of replacement planes. While the B-52's are so basic that they can probably be rolled off a ford plant still, the new planes are so specialized that it becomes quite difficult to keep using and re-using them through the years.

I wouldn't mind seeing 2 or 3 being made every year or two just to maintain the fleet. Start in say, 5 years if we don't have anything new coming on line at that point.
I'm no expert on military weapons programs, but I had a roommate who had worked for General Dynamics on the the A-12 Avenger program, which was cancelled. I asked him why they didn't jus make a few. He responded that there has to be a minumum number of orders to make it practical to keep the production lines open. That made a great deal os sense to me. And I think it is applicable here. You can't keep people standing around waiting to make two planes a year. The cost per plane would sky rocket. Remember there are ten's of thousands of people working on these programs.

Tony is correct. The Raptor will be is the sky for years to come.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

Here's what worries me about China. They previously had to adopt the Russian model of "Steal secrets from the US and make cheap, simple copies that work ALMOST as well".

Well, they have a ton of money now, so they can now steal our secrets and build planes just as well. Toss in the eventual engineering edge (seen many American engineering students studying Friday night in the college library?)and ten years down the road WE could be playing catch up to them.

Don't think so? There was atime when all the Jpanese cars were about the size of a can opener, were ugly, and sold only because they wewre cheap and got good gas mileage. Last time i checked, Toyota was the Worlds biggest producer of cars now, and the quality ain't to shoddy either.

If we get lazy and complacent, we'll lose our military edge as well...
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:43 AM   #28
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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i nearly shit my pants atleast 2X per week (and i dont scare easilly).
Are you sure it has to do with the planes? Maybe you should see a doctor.
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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I'm not confusing the two, so much as I think North Korea's military is probably pretty incompetent as well. All their public displays of might have gone wrong, and the country usually barely even has enough essential supplies to make it through the week, much less wage a war. They strike me as kind of like Iraq's army before the first Gulf War -- lots of soldiers, but not very effective and with probably no air power to speak of. Any modern army would probably crush them.

It would be a little worrisome if they were getting shit from China, but judging by how well their last rocket launch went, it doesn't look like it. But in either case, countries like China and Russia might sell some weapons to other countries, but notice how they never give them enough help that they can be as effective as China or Russia themselves. That's been the pattern for decades.
I know you are mainly talking about our superiority to the North Korean military, but you are missing the entire issue with North Korea. They have 1000's of short range missiles pointed at Seoul which is only 40 miles from there boarder and boast a population of 10 million.

You are right that we would probably walk all over them but not before they completely leveled Seoul the death toll would be enormous.

The comparison to Iraq is right on except lots of soldiers is an understatement DPRK army has over a million soldiers and don't forget they have at least two nukes! Although presumably no way to delivery the payload.
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:37 PM   #30
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Default Re: F-22 fighter program gets the axe

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Originally Posted by OneForTheToe View Post
I'm no expert on military weapons programs, but I had a roommate who had worked for General Dynamics on the the A-12 Avenger program, which was cancelled. I asked him why they didn't jus make a few. He responded that there has to be a minumum number of orders to make it practical to keep the production lines open. That made a great deal os sense to me. And I think it is applicable here. You can't keep people standing around waiting to make two planes a year. The cost per plane would sky rocket. Remember there are ten's of thousands of people working on these programs.

Tony is correct. The Raptor will be is the sky for years to come.
That actually makes a whole lot of sense as well.
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