Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

[Hines0wnz]

This shouldnt even be a story or debate. The regulations are there for everyone with no exceptions and when you join you are more than aware of them. If they dont wish to conform then they should be punished and given a 1 way ticket home. Period.

[SteelersMongol]

Originally Posted by xfl2001fan

There are many things to consider here.

1 - There really isn't a debate because the Army has a Standard that it expects every Soldier to abide by.

2 - There really isn't a debate because if the Army allows the Sikh to tilt that standard, then many other medially proficient (at a minimum) "Soldiers" will expect to have the standard tilted some in their favor.

3 - There really isn't a debate because in the Army, we are all "Soldier's" first. Even our Chaplains have to abide by the standards of the Army. If the Religious leaders have to abide by the standard set forth, why in the hell wouldn't a dentist?

4 - There really isn't a debate because there are serious safety implications involved with not having a beard and not wearing a Turban. These were state previously. The NBC mask seal around a beard...and the ACH (the new Kevlar) definitely doesn't fit around a turban.

Then how about this? Let's just say U R 1 of those 2 Sikhs recruits. Or their lawyer. I would love 2 C U defend their side of the story. Could U really do that? It's real simple, just imagine yourself in their shoes 4 a moment. U read the story, so U should know what has happened. Take it as a challenge. I know this is 1 of those things that they teach in universities in the states, so it should B real easy 4 U.

The thing is basically what I just read from your post is nothing new than what I read from previous posts. But U really had write it up all again, not understanding what I wrote or tried 2 say. (Note, I'm not gonna accept something like "Then I wouldn't join the US army", or "I'd go back 2 my country"! U'r better than that.)

[xfl2001fan]

Originally Posted by SteelersMongol

Then how about this? Let's just say U R 1 of those 2 Sikhs recruits. Or their lawyer. I would love 2 C U defend their side of the story. Could U really do that? It's real simple, just imagine yourself in their shoes 4 a moment. U read the story, so U should know what has happened. Take it as a challenge. I know this is 1 of those things that they teach in universities in the states, so it should B real easy 4 U.

The thing is basically what I just read from your post is nothing new than what I read from previous posts. But U really had write it up all again, not understanding what I wrote or tried 2 say. (Note, I'm not gonna accept something like "Then I wouldn't join the US army", or "I'd go back 2 my country"! U'r better than that.)

Before I joined the military, I did my research. I really did. I knew about the height/weight/appearance requirements. I knew what the PT standard was. I don't have a father, or an uncle or a brother in the military. A couple of cousins who were born and raised in California...but I have met them all of 2 times in my entire life. I treated joining the military like I treated going to college. I did the research, weighed the options and made my choice.

I can't change what the recruiter said to them. If I'm a lawyer defending them, I'm going after their recruiter. In this case, most of these slick recruiters who are pulling the wool over the eyes of the prospective Soldiers (or whatever branch) are almost always smart enough not to put it in writing. If the Sikh's did get something in writing, then they have a real legal battle and some justification. Unfortunately, what they have is heresy from how long ago? That's why my post indicated that there is no debate in this. There is no argument. It's sad that there are some shady recruiters. It really is. I want to string those types of recruiters up by their balls because they aren't doing me (as a Soldier) any good whatsoever. In fact, they make my job that much more difficult because now I have an unhappy young Soldier in my unit who's first impression of the Army is a terrible one. It's hard to break a new Soldier who's been screwed out the gate of that impression.

As for the Sikh. Sorry about your luck. If you're smart enough to get into medical school, then you should be smart enough to get all of this in writing. If you didn't, you have no one to blame but yourself. You have an obligation to meet. If you can't meet that "service" obligation, then you should have to pay on any loans that the DoD covered for you when you signed your contract.

I'm not trying to be an ass in this. I'm not the one who's getting screwed here. However, I can tell you this, the instant that we let standards slip a little bit for one or two people, is the instant that the entire squad slips. That leads to a company slipping, which hurts the Battalion, and their Brigade and so on and so forth. There's a reason why the standards are so strictly forced. When you stop forcing standards, you lose discipline and that leads to lost lives. It might seem/feel melodramatic for those on the outside looking in, and for the most part, it won't likely be quite as bad as it sounds...there is still more than just a grain of truth to that statement.

If this isn't the answer you're looking for, then I apologize. But it's the best that you will get (at this time) from me.

[SteelersMongol]

Originally Posted by xfl2001fan

Before I joined the military, I did my research. I really did. I knew about the height/weight/appearance requirements. I knew what the PT standard was. I don't have a father, or an uncle or a brother in the military. A couple of cousins who were born and raised in California...but I have met them all of 2 times in my entire life. I treated joining the military like I treated going to college. I did the research, weighed the options and made my choice.

I can't change what the recruiter said to them. If I'm a lawyer defending them, I'm going after their recruiter. In this case, most of these slick recruiters who are pulling the wool over the eyes of the prospective Soldiers (or whatever branch) are almost always smart enough not to put it in writing. If the Sikh's did get something in writing, then they have a real legal battle and some justification. Unfortunately, what they have is heresy from how long ago? That's why my post indicated that there is no debate in this. There is no argument. It's sad that there are some shady recruiters. It really is. I want to string those types of recruiters up by their balls because they aren't doing me (as a Soldier) any good whatsoever. In fact, they make my job that much more difficult because now I have an unhappy young Soldier in my unit who's first impression of the Army is a terrible one. It's hard to break a new Soldier who's been screwed out the gate of that impression.

As for the Sikh. Sorry about your luck. If you're smart enough to get into medical school, then you should be smart enough to get all of this in writing. If you didn't, you have no one to blame but yourself. You have an obligation to meet. If you can't meet that "service" obligation, then you should have to pay on any loans that the DoD covered for you when you signed your contract.

I'm not trying to be an ass in this. I'm not the one who's getting screwed here. However, I can tell you this, the instant that we let standards slip a little bit for one or two people, is the instant that the entire squad slips. That leads to a company slipping, which hurts the Battalion, and their Brigade and so on and so forth. There's a reason why the standards are so strictly forced. When you stop forcing standards, you lose discipline and that leads to lost lives. It might seem/feel melodramatic for those on the outside looking in, and for the most part, it won't likely be quite as bad as it sounds...there is still more than just a grain of truth to that statement.

If this isn't the answer you're looking for, then I apologize. But it's the best that you will get (at this time) from me.

Thank you. Sorry if I sounded little upset with my previous post. I guess I was little 2 tired 2 get your point last night. I was running around the whole city trying 2 take care of things here & there instead of trying 2 get some rest even though it was a Sunday. As 4 me, I'm very conservative when it comes 2 abide by the rules as my dad being a former officer in the military & my mom being a retired police officer. I just thought there could B something done 4 those people like these Sikh men who got caught between their religious beliefs & their own desire 2 B in the US military. Thanks again 4 taking your time & making me C the point.

BTW, HAPPY B'DAY. Wish U a nice birthday party & lot of gifts with Cleveland stuff .

[SteelersinCA]

Originally Posted by SteelersMongol

lot of gifts with Cleveland stuff

Fixed the Cleveland stuff for you!!!

[stlrtruck]

Originally Posted by xfl2001fan

I'm not trying to be an ass in this. I'm not the one who's getting screwed here. However, I can tell you this, the instant that we let standards slip a little bit for one or two people, is the instant that the entire squad slips. That leads to a company slipping, which hurts the Battalion, and their Brigade and so on and so forth. There's a reason why the standards are so strictly forced. When you stop forcing standards, you lose discipline and that leads to lost lives. It might seem/feel melodramatic for those on the outside looking in, and for the most part, it won't likely be quite as bad as it sounds...there is still more than just a grain of truth to that statement.

Well put XFL. It's the same as when we raise our children. We have standards for our house and if we allow one child to get away with something not to our standard, then the next child will think they can get away with that AND MORE.

When I joined the Navy, I knew what I was getting myself into at that moment. I think I had one of those rare recruiters that had full disclosure.

Our country has compromised a lot in the past 15-20 years. If we start to compromise our military, then we compromise our security and our freedom.

[xfl2001fan]

Originally Posted by SteelersMongol

Thank you. Sorry if I sounded little upset with my previous post. I guess I was little 2 tired 2 get your point last night. I was running around the whole city trying 2 take care of things here & there instead of trying 2 get some rest even though it was a Sunday. As 4 me, I'm very conservative when it comes 2 abide by the rules as my dad being a former officer in the military & my mom being a retired police officer. I just thought there could B something done 4 those people like these Sikh men who got caught between their religious beliefs & their own desire 2 B in the US military. Thanks again 4 taking your time & making me C the point.

BTW, HAPPY B'DAY. Wish U a nice birthday party & lot of gifts with Cleveland stuff .

No worries man. I got mad respect for you and nothing you've said in any of your posts has diminished that. As much as I respect the Sikh and their feelings, hard lines have to be drawn. There's a saying amongst those of us who serve. The military is not a Democracy, it's just there to protect one. I am confident that most non-service members (and by service-member, I include fireman, policeman, etc...) struggle with that one...because I know a lot of service-members who still struggle with it.

Thanx for the B-day wishes! Mostly, I've been getting softball gear for the league I coach/play in. I'm waiting on my bat to arrive (it's a $300 bat...but man, it turns me from a sub-par batter to a stellar one fast.)