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Old 04-23-2009, 02:59 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you picked those seasons instead of just their first 6 years in the league?

There is no stat for clutch and I would say Kobe is one of the all time greats when it comes to clutch. LeBron can be if he becomes a better shooter. Kobe also was just as big as Lebron is now as far as marketing before the rape scandal.

And Kobe still sells jerseys: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3866598

Also Lebron seems to think Kobe is the best in the league.
Nevermind the title, it's pretty much a pro Kobe video, but the clip of Lebron is definitely real.

And as for what NBA GMs think: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...s-lebron_N.htm

I'm guessing the NBA GMs know more about it than you or me. GO KOBE!!!
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

Those seasons were picked based off of the conversation that started in the NBA Playoffs thread. I created this thread to do the Lebron/Kobe talk so as not to be a thread hi-jacking there.

Lebron is allowed to say someone is a better player. But that doesn't necessarily make it so. Can't watch Youtube at work, so I'll have to wait til I get home to watch the video.

Taking Kobe for his total body of work over a 12 year career vs taking James and his 4 year career is still about perception. I'm trying to show a different side of the picture.

Too many people want to use "Rings" as the deciding factor...but (as stated previously) what is Kobe without Shaq? This year, instead of one big man, he's got the "Twin Towers" in Bynum/Gasol...which is like putting Parker on a team with Duncan/Robinson.

It's just sick. Toss in the fact that LA has Odom coming off the bench...yeah, Kobe's team should win. He's got more pieces...and (when it's all added up) they are better than the Cavs. Lebron can't control who was traded to the Lakers...and he can't control who signs with the Cavs. He's not the GM. The best that he can do is play with the teammates that he has.

How many people were saying MJ was the absolute best in the League before Pippin, Rodman, etc...? Once he got them (and the rings that come with it) to go with the stats he was able to produce...now he's the best that the league has ever seen.

Lebron has never had championship talent around him...it's been his Championship talent that has carried his team to 50, 50, 45, and 66 wins these last 4 years. It's been his championship talent that has carried his team to the Eastern Conference Finals, Championship, Eastern Conference Finals and (?).

The thought that Kobe is better in the last 4 mintues of the game. Kobe rarely passes up those shots. Lebron is looking for the best shot available. He'll pass up a good shot to give an (attempted) assist if a teammate looks to have a great shot. That's why he has consistently had more assists than Kobe.

I don't question that Kobe is the better shooter. But to say that Lebron can't create his shot as well as Kobe is just sick. His body control is every bit as good as Kobes, his speed (if not faster) is as fast as Kobes...and he handles the ball just about as well as Kobe does. Kobe isn't nearly as strong...though he is very strong for a Guard. Lebron is strong for a Power Forward, with the ball skills, speed and agility of a guard...and the passing skills of a PG.

Keep guessing, keep your Kobe glasses on...that's fine. But you're comparing 12 years of work (and better teams to go with it) vs 4. Seems a bit...biased.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:31 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

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As a team, the Cavs don't have a Pippen. How many titles did he win before Pippen? Pippen was a perennial all-star in his own right...though not a guy to carry a team through a championship on his own.

All those rings...and people are so quick to overlook the talent on the Bulls team. It wasn't JUST Jordan there.
Agreed. Also, don't forget Rodman, Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong, etc. The Bulls had a bunch of excellent role players.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:35 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

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Those seasons were picked based off of the conversation that started in the NBA Playoffs thread. I created this thread to do the Lebron/Kobe talk so as not to be a thread hi-jacking there.

Lebron is allowed to say someone is a better player. But that doesn't necessarily make it so. Can't watch Youtube at work, so I'll have to wait til I get home to watch the video.

Taking Kobe for his total body of work over a 12 year career vs taking James and his 4 year career is still about perception. I'm trying to show a different side of the picture.

Too many people want to use "Rings" as the deciding factor...but (as stated previously) what is Kobe without Shaq? This year, instead of one big man, he's got the "Twin Towers" in Bynum/Gasol...which is like putting Parker on a team with Duncan/Robinson.

It's just sick. Toss in the fact that LA has Odom coming off the bench...yeah, Kobe's team should win. He's got more pieces...and (when it's all added up) they are better than the Cavs. Lebron can't control who was traded to the Lakers...and he can't control who signs with the Cavs. He's not the GM. The best that he can do is play with the teammates that he has.

How many people were saying MJ was the absolute best in the League before Pippin, Rodman, etc...? Once he got them (and the rings that come with it) to go with the stats he was able to produce...now he's the best that the league has ever seen.

Lebron has never had championship talent around him...it's been his Championship talent that has carried his team to 50, 50, 45, and 66 wins these last 4 years. It's been his championship talent that has carried his team to the Eastern Conference Finals, Championship, Eastern Conference Finals and (?).

The thought that Kobe is better in the last 4 mintues of the game. Kobe rarely passes up those shots. Lebron is looking for the best shot available. He'll pass up a good shot to give an (attempted) assist if a teammate looks to have a great shot. That's why he has consistently had more assists than Kobe.

I don't question that Kobe is the better shooter. But to say that Lebron can't create his shot as well as Kobe is just sick. His body control is every bit as good as Kobes, his speed (if not faster) is as fast as Kobes...and he handles the ball just about as well as Kobe does. Kobe isn't nearly as strong...though he is very strong for a Guard. Lebron is strong for a Power Forward, with the ball skills, speed and agility of a guard...and the passing skills of a PG.

Keep guessing, keep your Kobe glasses on...that's fine. But you're comparing 12 years of work (and better teams to go with it) vs 4. Seems a bit...biased.
I'm not advocating that you should compare Kobe's 12 years vs Lebrons 5, he's been in since 03' I was simply curious as to why you picked those years for comparison.

I'm not saying Lebron is bad player, but it's difficult to compare for several reasons, Kobe is older, has the rings, and has a more talented team where he doesn't have to do as much as Lebron.

I don't think any truly nuetral person would say Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe. You're from Cleveland, I understand your preference for LBJ. I'm simply saying Kobe is a world renowned player just like Lebron, if not more famous because of his longevity. They are the 2 best in the league, we're splitting hairs here, you realize that right?

Why do all you Ohio fans get so sensitive? Is it the lack of winning programs or what?
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

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I'm not advocating that you should compare Kobe's 12 years vs Lebrons 5, he's been in since 03' I was simply curious as to why you picked those years for comparison.

I'm not saying Lebron is bad player, but it's difficult to compare for several reasons, Kobe is older, has the rings, and has a more talented team where he doesn't have to do as much as Lebron.

I don't think any truly nuetral person would say Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe. You're from Cleveland, I understand your preference for LBJ. I'm simply saying Kobe is a world renowned player just like Lebron, if not more famous because of his longevity. They are the 2 best in the league, we're splitting hairs here, you realize that right?

Why do all you Ohio fans get so sensitive? Is it the lack of winning programs or what?
I shouldn't have made it sound like you were implying the disparity in years. That was definitely my fault.

I am refuting arguments that I hear on a consistent basis, that's all. Rings are unfair, because of the difference in talent level for teams...and you can't win in Basketball without a team. Basketball, like football, requires for a total team effort to win...so the rings are more indicative of team talent/coaching as opposed to individual accomplishments...plus (as stated previously) those rings were more due to Shaq than they were to Kobe.

IMO there is a huge difference between being a scorer and a shooter. A scorer gets points in a myriad of ways. Shaq is a scorer. In his heyday, he was one of the more dominant scorers because his inside presence is so strong. To many people (not necessarily you) confuse the difference between scoring and shooting. They are related, but still very different themes...and I believe that Lebron is a better scorer. Yes, it's by the teensiest bit. However, Kobe is a much better shooter. A lot of that has to do with time in the league though. I believe that Lebron will become an even more efficient shooter over the next 6 years, to go with the rest of his beastly skills, just as Kobe had to work at it.

The real comparison between Kobe and Lebron should, ultimately, come down to which player type you prefer. I prefer Lebrons team mentaility over Kobe's killer mentality. It's not that Lebron Can't be a killer...or that Kobe scores better...it's just that Lebron looks for the best option that the defense gives him whereas Kobe tries (more often than not, successfully) to force the defense to make a mistake that he can exploit (primarily in "crunch time".)

Give Lebron the team...and he'll win rings. The Cavs are one more (more than solid) player away from utterly dominating the league. Right now, they've got the role players...now it's time to find the Pippen. Mo was a fantastic piece...but I believe they need a big down low that can really dominate...because while Z is good...and Varejao is steadily (and fairly rapidly) improving...they're not quite up to the level that is necessary to put the Cavs over the top...especially when you look at who they will likely face in the finals.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:46 PM   #16
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

Both are outstanding but Kobe is the better scorer and LeBron is the better overall player but I think that is because of his position.
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

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Both are outstanding but Kobe is the better scorer and LeBron is the better overall player but I think that is because of his position.
Again, scorer or shooter? I believe Lebron is a shade better scorer but Kobe is a better shooter.

What does position have to do with anything?
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

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I shouldn't have made it sound like you were implying the disparity in years. That was definitely my fault.

I am refuting arguments that I hear on a consistent basis, that's all. Rings are unfair, because of the difference in talent level for teams...and you can't win in Basketball without a team. Basketball, like football, requires for a total team effort to win...so the rings are more indicative of team talent/coaching as opposed to individual accomplishments...plus (as stated previously) those rings were more due to Shaq than they were to Kobe.

IMO there is a huge difference between being a scorer and a shooter. A scorer gets points in a myriad of ways. Shaq is a scorer. In his heyday, he was one of the more dominant scorers because his inside presence is so strong. To many people (not necessarily you) confuse the difference between scoring and shooting. They are related, but still very different themes...and I believe that Lebron is a better scorer. Yes, it's by the teensiest bit. However, Kobe is a much better shooter. A lot of that has to do with time in the league though. I believe that Lebron will become an even more efficient shooter over the next 6 years, to go with the rest of his beastly skills, just as Kobe had to work at it.

The real comparison between Kobe and Lebron should, ultimately, come down to which player type you prefer. I prefer Lebrons team mentaility over Kobe's killer mentality. It's not that Lebron Can't be a killer...or that Kobe scores better...it's just that Lebron looks for the best option that the defense gives him whereas Kobe tries (more often than not, successfully) to force the defense to make a mistake that he can exploit (primarily in "crunch time".)

Give Lebron the team...and he'll win rings. The Cavs are one more (more than solid) player away from utterly dominating the league. Right now, they've got the role players...now it's time to find the Pippen. Mo was a fantastic piece...but I believe they need a big down low that can really dominate...because while Z is good...and Varejao is steadily (and fairly rapidly) improving...they're not quite up to the level that is necessary to put the Cavs over the top...especially when you look at who they will likely face in the finals.
I think your analysis is completely reasonable and fair, I just disagree. If I had to take any player right now, I'd take Kobe. If I had to take any player right now to build a franchise around I'd take Lebron, because of the age. If I had to take either of the two at the inception of their career to build a franchise around, I'd take Kobe. However, I would not fault someone who would pick LBJ.
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

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I think your analysis is completely reasonable and fair, I just disagree. If I had to take any player right now, I'd take Kobe. If I had to take any player right now to build a franchise around I'd take Lebron, because of the age. If I had to take either of the two at the inception of their career to build a franchise around, I'd take Kobe. However, I would not fault someone who would pick LBJ.
I couldn't fault you for taking Kobe at his inception...but his first two years, he didn't really do much, whereas Lebron has been NBA ready since Day 1. I think that a part of that is why I am that much more enamored with him (and Dwight Howard too) than I am with Kobe.

Kobe (to me) also comes off as fake. He seems like he's programmed himself to have the image he created (even before the whole scandal) whereas it feels more natural with Lebron. It looks like Lebron really is playing a game...whereas with Kobe, it looks more like work. Again, these are just my impressions...and I don't think that it's about Cleveland or East/West coast either. I get the same impression from Dwight Howard that I do from Lebron...and D-Wade seems like a mix between between the Kobe/Lebron.

Then again, I used to like Shaq...but anymore, he seems like an old fading superstar who can't let go of the spotlight.
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Official Kobe vs Lebron Thread

I've always hated Shaq, if you were 7'1" and 330lbs you could dominate in the post too.

I think Kobe makes it look like work because he is so intense. They are both amazing to watch, I guess I just like Kobe's style better. Howard doesn't do much for me.
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