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Old 08-13-2009, 12:00 AM   #11
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Default Re: And now a word from Dutch...

Can we call is "socialism-lite" at least?

I mean, it's a pretty good step some might think, but not all the way in the pool. :D
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: And now a word from Dutch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTalons View Post
All I asked for was healthcare to have a public option along with a private, not to nationalize EVERYTHING!
Then you voted for the wrong man.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:38 AM   #13
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Default Re: And now a word from Dutch...

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Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
Controlling up to 15% of the GDP is socialism no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it. And OK, you support a hybrid health care system. That's fine - I support a similar system that absolutely, positively does NOT take away choice and quality of care, AND can be done within a reasonable budget. But the problem is, that's NOT what Obama is pushing. Not when they insert language that calls for denial of access to treatment for people with chronic health issues and the elderly - like my mother. Not when you have provisions that calls for an 8% tax on payrolls for businesses that do not offer any kind of health insurance and a 2.5% tax on individuals who have what THEY feel is an "inadequate" private plan. Both would ultimately force those people onto the public plan, which is EXACTLY what they want. It goes back to a lack of trust in government, especially the guys in charge now.

Anyway, most real conservatives and fiscal conservatives understand that taxes are an inevitability and a necessity. What we want is FAIR taxation and for the tax money to be spent wisely. When you consider all of the money that the federal government takes in every year, is it too much to ask that they be a little more responsible with how they spend it? Why can't the government operate within a budget the way an average American does? Or even the way a business does? If I or a business were to run up the kind of debt (proportionally, of course) that the feds do, I'd be living in a box underneath a bridge, and the business would fail. But yet, we have people in government who have no problem doing just that. And when that happens, guess what? Our taxes go up, when they shouldn't have to. We aren't "anarchists with a flag fetish," we just believe that we are already taxed more than enough, and want more fiscal restraint in government. That's all.
High five.
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Old 08-13-2009, 07:26 AM   #14
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Default Re: And now a word from Dutch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
Controlling up to 15% of the GDP is socialism no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it. And OK, you support a hybrid health care system. That's fine - I support a similar system that absolutely, positively does NOT take away choice and quality of care, AND can be done within a reasonable budget. But the problem is, that's NOT what Obama is pushing. Not when they insert language that calls for denial of access to treatment for people with chronic health issues and the elderly - like my mother. Not when you have provisions that calls for an 8% tax on payrolls for businesses that do not offer any kind of health insurance and a 2.5% tax on individuals who have what THEY feel is an "inadequate" private plan. Both would ultimately force those people onto the public plan, which is EXACTLY what they want. It goes back to a lack of trust in government, especially the guys in charge now.

Anyway, most real conservatives and fiscal conservatives understand that taxes are an inevitability and a necessity. What we want is FAIR taxation and for the tax money to be spent wisely. When you consider all of the money that the federal government takes in every year, is it too much to ask that they be a little more responsible with how they spend it? Why can't the government operate within a budget the way an average American does? Or even the way a business does? If I or a business were to run up the kind of debt (proportionally, of course) that the feds do, I'd be living in a box underneath a bridge, and the business would fail. But yet, we have people in government who have no problem doing just that. And when that happens, guess what? Our taxes go up, when they shouldn't have to. We aren't "anarchists with a flag fetish," we just believe that we are already taxed more than enough, and want more fiscal restraint in government. That's all.
I second that High Five!

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Old 08-13-2009, 08:56 AM   #15
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Default Re: And now a word from Dutch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTalons View Post
Nationalization - the act of taking an industry or assets into the public ownership of a national government or state.

And yet I dont support a single payer only system. Im supporting a hybrid system with a government run and private sector plans. You act like Im saying hijack the industry completely, all Im saying is fix whats broke, provide more options when it comes to healthcare, and to cover the 50million uninsured AMERICANS.

If Im a "socialist" for that. Then your not a "conservative" your a "closet anarchist with a flag fetish". What do I say we do, besides pay for the utilities for cities to run and for the postal service to function, along with education(which needs reform), healthcare, and the military. Other than that we just need to set the basic rules in place so the markets don't have the big ass bubbles, this boom and bust cycle that historically plagued this country at the beginning, but deregulation by your anarchist caused it to leap out of the grave once one and here we are.

Last time I checked Clinton got a surplus because he understood if your gonna spend money you have to make it. And the only way to make it is taxes. So unless you go all Ron Paul on us and be anti-government about EVERYTHING. There is no way for you to get out your damn taxes, despite the fact you keep electing people to "cut taxes".

I swear I think you people are anarchist with a flag fetish, you claim you love this country and its values yet you apparently don't give a damn about anything but your money. You just like the flag and claim your so proud of your country despite the fact you bitch and moan about EVERYTHING it does besides cut taxes.

The only thing that Im really LIBERAL about is social issues. Economically, not so much. Only a few things I say they should get involved in, like investing OUR tax dollar on US, on OUR healthcare and education and to maintain the standard of living.

By the worlds standard people like, myself are conservative! Im not screaming socialism, nor am I advising it. Controlling 8 to 15% of GDP isn't socialism, 50% or more like in European countries is socialism.

Its like you people would love to see nothing more than the Constitution ripped up and for us to put the Articles of Confederation back in place. So the government doesn't have the damn power to do anything, not even tax. You're going all states rights on us despite the fact life would be so much different and our military would extremely suck ass if we did that.

Conservatives my ass... Is there no in between with you people? Does it always have to be ZERO government involvement or TOTAL government involvement on every damn thing we do?

Where's Henry Clay when you need him?
Filled with flaws, half "facts", and biased misinterpretations. I'll take 'em in order:

A) 50 million uninsured is a garbage number. It may be as low as 10 when you toss out illegals, people already eligible but not taking advantage, and people who CAN afford it but CHOOSE not to.
B) Your proposals in paragraph two, if you really mean them, are right in line with conservative values. SOME regulation to stabilize things, along with basic government (read: small) to keep the wheels turning.
C) The Clinton "surplus" is a myth...it was smoke and mirrors. http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16
Even if you want to believe the myth, it was all based on a bubble (the same bubbles you just blasted a paragraph ago) and when the bubble burst, they shifted it from dot coms to housing. That's a false surplus.
D) Bush's tax cuts actually INCREASED tax revenue collection. Clinton's DECREASED revenue collection (In re the upper tax brackets) . See: Here http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-g...t/reagtxct.htm
E) Bush's tax cuts INCREASED revenue Wanted to source this from D). Here http://www.opinionjournal.com/column.../?id=110010798
F) Calling people names doesn't change these FACTS
G) ANY increase of the government controlling GDP is a move towards socialism. It doesn't happen overnight.

I respect your passion, but you need serious FACT CHECK
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