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Old 10-02-2009, 12:41 PM   #1
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Default Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

Interesting...changes everything, really...Lovejoy works across the street form me, more or less...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091001/...ci_before_lucy

Before Lucy came Ardi, new earliest hominid found



By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, AP Science Writer Randolph E. Schmid, Ap Science Writer Thu Oct 1, 6:33 pm ET
WASHINGTON The story of humankind is reaching back another million years as scientists learn more about "Ardi," a hominid who lived 4.4 million years ago in what is now Ethiopia. The 110-pound, 4-foot female roamed forests a million years before the famous Lucy, long studied as the earliest skeleton of a human ancestor.
This older skeleton reverses the common wisdom of human evolution, said anthropologist C. Owen Lovejoy of Kent State University.
Rather than humans evolving from an ancient chimp-like creature, the new find provides evidence that chimps and humans evolved from some long-ago common ancestor but each evolved and changed separately along the way.
"This is not that common ancestor, but it's the closest we have ever been able to come," said Tim White, director of the Human Evolution Research Center at the University of California, Berkeley.
The lines that evolved into modern humans and living apes probably shared an ancestor 6 million to 7 million years ago, White said in a telephone interview.
But Ardi has many traits that do not appear in modern-day African apes, leading to the conclusion that the apes evolved extensively since we shared that last common ancestor.
A study of Ardi, under way since the first bones were discovered in 1994, indicates the species lived in the woodlands and could climb on all fours along tree branches, but the development of their arms and legs indicates they didn't spend much time in the trees. And they could walk upright, on two legs, when on the ground.
Formally dubbed Ardipithecus ramidus which means root of the ground ape the find is detailed in 11 research papers published Thursday by the journal Science.
"This is one of the most important discoveries for the study of human evolution," said David Pilbeam, curator of paleoanthropology at Harvard's Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology.
"It is relatively complete in that it preserves head, hands, feet and some critical parts in between. It represents a genus plausibly ancestral to Australopithecus itself ancestral to our genus Homo," said Pilbeam, who was not part of the research teams.
Scientists assembled the skeleton from 125 pieces.
Lucy, also found in Africa, thrived a million years after Ardi and was of the more human-like genus Australopithecus.
"In Ardipithecus we have an unspecialized form that hasn't evolved very far in the direction of Australopithecus. So when you go from head to toe, you're seeing a mosaic creature that is neither chimpanzee, nor is it human. It is Ardipithecus," said White.
White noted that Charles Darwin, whose research in the 19th century paved the way for the science of evolution, was cautious about the last common ancestor between humans and apes.
"Darwin said we have to be really careful. The only way we're really going to know what this last common ancestor looked like is to go and find it. Well, at 4.4 million years ago we found something pretty close to it," White said. "And, just like Darwin appreciated, evolution of the ape lineages and the human lineage has been going on independently since the time those lines split, since that last common ancestor we shared."
Some details about Ardi in the collection of papers:
Ardi was found in Ethiopia's Afar Rift, where many fossils of ancient plants and animals have been discovered. Findings near the skeleton indicate that at the time it was a wooded environment. Fossils of 29 species of birds and 20 species of small mammals were found at the site.
Geologist Giday WoldeGabriel of Los Alamos National Laboratory was able to use volcanic layers above and below the fossil to date it to 4.4 million years ago.
Ardi's upper canine teeth are more like the stubby ones of modern humans than the long, sharp, pointed ones of male chimpanzees and most other primates. An analysis of the tooth enamel suggests a diverse diet, including fruit and other woodland-based foods such as nuts and leaves.
Paleoanthropologist Gen Suwa of the University of Tokyo reported that Ardi's face had a projecting muzzle, giving her an ape-like appearance. But it didn't thrust forward quite as much as the lower faces of modern African apes do. Some features of her skull, such as the ridge above the eye socket, are quite different from those of chimpanzees. The details of the bottom of the skull, where nerves and blood vessels enter the brain, indicate that Ardi's brain was positioned in a way similar to modern humans, possibly suggesting that the hominid brain may have been already poised to expand areas involving aspects of visual and spatial perception.
Ardi's hand and wrist were a mix of primitive traits and a few new ones, but they don't include the hallmark traits of the modern tree-hanging, knuckle-walking chimps and gorillas. She had relatively short palms and fingers which were flexible, allowing her to support her body weight on her palms while moving along tree branches, but she had to be a careful climber because she lacked the anatomical features that allow modern-day African apes to swing, hang and easily move through the trees.
The pelvis and hip show the gluteal muscles were positioned so she could walk upright.
Her feet were rigid enough for walking but still had a grasping big toe for use in climbing.
The research was funded by the National Science Foundation, the Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics of the University of California, Los Alamos National Laboratory, the Japan Society for the Promotion of Science and others.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:43 PM   #2
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

Verrrrrrry interesting.
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

im not quite sure exactly what this changes.

the silly misconception that man "evolved" from chimps or apes that all the uneducated subscribers to the theory of evolution have always clung to?

that one is a no-brainer.

i thought it was just common knowledge that both species evolved from a common ancestor, but at some point in time they branched apart like the branches in a tree.

to think that lucy had ancestors, or even ardi is nothing groundbreaking.

if this planet would be around for another 300 years, there is no telling what excavations and research would reveal, and how many hypothesis's and theories would be proven true.

some people just dont need a physical bone to know or prove what is "true" though. some people can easilly and blindly accept the truth as it is, based on faith alone...


and before anyone gets their feathers in a ruffle, i am NOT discounting the theory of evolution (a theory i DO believe in and subscribe to)... just the c0ckamaimy notion that man evolved from common day gorillas or chimpanzees. HUGE difference.
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

Wow.

If I were to make the assumptions in my work that are made there... I would get ripped apart in my seminar work. Once again, It is the evidence of Dogma over observation.

There is no difference between what the catholic church did in the dark ages and evolutionists do now... Subscribe to the dogma, or get called a heretic.

WOW there is some bad assumptive logic in this article.
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Old 10-08-2009, 11:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

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Wow.

If I were to make the assumptions in my work that are made there... I would get ripped apart in my seminar work. Once again, It is the evidence of Dogma over observation.

There is no difference between what the catholic church did in the dark ages and evolutionists do now... Subscribe to the dogma, or get called a heretic.

WOW there is some bad assumptive logic in this article.
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Old 10-08-2009, 11:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

please elaborate preach...

im "assuming" since lovejoy works across the street from revs, he couldnt possibly be wrong, just by "association" alone....



(personally, i LOVE how revs uses the FACT that lovejoy works across the street from him, to lend more credence to his OPINION that this "changes everything" .)

:

holy shit... lend me an oxygen mask!

the ever expanding 'big bang' ego is thrusting me into the stratosphere and i can no longer breath...
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Old 10-09-2009, 05:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

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i thought it was just common knowledge that both species evolved from a common ancestor, but at some point in time they branched apart like the branches in a tree.

[/B]
So are you implying that this theory makes sense to you? I certainly hope not.
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Old 10-09-2009, 06:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

Errrr...first off, benchwarmer, I pointed out that Lovejoy works across the street from me simply because I think it's cool that the guy is local. A real reeeeeeeeeach to try and attach other attributes to that statement, but, well, that's what you do...

Secondly, this is a yahoo article, not a scholarly report. It was posted for reasons of brevity, nothing more...

Finally, to downplay, or minimize the importance of the discovery of the oldest human ancestors skeleton is absurd.

Since anything I post is subject to ad hominem, I'll relate some quotes from the scientists working on this project:

"This find is far more important than Lucy," said Alan Walker, a paleontologist from Pennsylvania State University who was not part of the research. "It shows that the last common ancestor with chimps didn't look like a chimp, or a human, or some funny thing in between."

"What Ardi tells us is there was this vast intermediate stage in our evolution that nobody knew about," said Owen Lovejoy, an anatomist at Kent State University in Ohio, who analyzed Ardi's bones below the neck. "It changes everything."

Stony Brook's Jungers added, "These finds are incredibly important, and given the state of preservation of the bones, what they did was nothing short of heroic.

But this is just the beginning of the story."
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

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Errrr...first off, benchwarmer, I pointed out that Lovejoy works across the street from me simply because I think it's cool that the guy is local. A real reeeeeeeeeach to try and attach other attributes to that statement, but, well, that's what you do...

Secondly, this is a yahoo article, not a scholarly report. It was posted for reasons of brevity, nothing more...

Finally, to downplay, or minimize the importance of the discovery of the oldest human ancestors skeleton is absurd.

Since anything I post is subject to ad hominem, I'll relate some quotes from the scientists working on this project:

"This find is far more important than Lucy," said Alan Walker, a paleontologist from Pennsylvania State University who was not part of the research. "It shows that the last common ancestor with chimps didn't look like a chimp, or a human, or some funny thing in between."

"What Ardi tells us is there was this vast intermediate stage in our evolution that nobody knew about," said Owen Lovejoy, an anatomist at Kent State University in Ohio, who analyzed Ardi's bones below the neck. "It changes everything."

Stony Brook's Jungers added, "These finds are incredibly important, and given the state of preservation of the bones, what they did was nothing short of heroic.

But this is just the beginning of the story."

Hey Rev... Do you have access to any of the peer-reviewed work concerning this discovery? I would love to read some journal articles concerning it. My first post is concerning snippets of comments, and I realize that. I wanna know how the peer-reviewed stuff deals with it.
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Old 10-09-2009, 03:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Hmmmm....Humans and Chimps Evolved From a Common Ancestor...

I, for one, find this to be fascinating (remember when Spock used to say that?!)



As Revs pointed out, this appeared in yahoo news. Not really a bastion of scientific reporting. The real articles (actual scientific papers---I believe there were 12 of them) appeared in Science, which is absolutely the most difficult journal to publish in (I know, bad grammar with the dangling preposition and all). The other very difficult journal to publish in is the British journal Nature. If you can get your research published in either of these, you are afforded some fairly large measure of respect in the scientific community as they are the most harshly refereed journals in the world. And no, their referees don't play favorites to Marsha! (peer-reviewers are referred to as referees in the large journals... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/refereed)

Preach, I'm also in agreement with you that I want to see the original articles because these "mainstream scientific reporters" often throw bias into their reports in so many ways. For example, a very important part of a research article may often be "cut up" and edited simply to fill available space allocated to the "science reporter" that he/she doesn't include it. It makes me crazy, but it is what it is---up to us to find the original and read it so that we may derive an educated opinion for ourselves.

I'll try to find the originals, but they may not be readily available on-line.
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