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Old 11-27-2009, 02:10 AM   #1
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Default Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

So why hasn't it been banned?

Seems to me it is a "Religious Holiday" much like Christmas. THis time, it is to give thanks to the almighty God. There is "Pilgrims" and "Mayflower".

Not wanting to start a tussle over a great holiday, just was struck by the. . . inconsistency of the evangelical atheists.

Quote:
By the President of the United States of America.
A Proclamation.
The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.
In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.
Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.
By the President: Abraham Lincoln
William H. Seward,
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creat...hes/thanks.htm
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Old 11-27-2009, 07:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

Quote:
So why hasn't it been banned?

Probably because at this point it's considered by many to be a secular holiday.
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Old 11-27-2009, 07:36 AM   #3
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

"bu-bu-bu-Lincoln"?
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:03 AM   #4
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

Since it's approaching fast and can't possibly be considered secular why haven't they banned Christmas?
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

In as much as atheism is a religion, why hasn't it been banned?

http://wilstar.com/holidays/wash_thanks.html

George Washington's 1789 Thanksgiving Proclamation


Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789.



Contrast this proclamation with the "secular" tyranny of today.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

What the heck is an "evangelical atheist"?

This argument is absolutely loaded with holes, BTW.
#1 Thanksgiving was celebrated long before the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock.
#2 Even way back then it was a secular holiday.
#3 The Constitution says "Congress shall pass no law" The President is free to attribute the holiday to whatever wanders into his mind, as that is non-binding.
#4 You may well be the only person in the Western Hemisphere that believes that Thanksgiving is a religious holiday.

Furthermore, the argument itself is one giant knot of logical fallacies.
#1 Nobody has tried to "ban" any holiday. The first time anybody attempts to erect a shrine in thanksgiving to the Dark Lord Kromdor on the courthouse steps, I'm sure that will get banned, but Thanksgiving itself will always remain intact.
#2 Our government's powers are defined by the Constitution, amended, and interpreted by the Supreme Court, not Abe Lincoln.
#3 Even if your premise were true, violations of the law do not nullify the law. No matter how many instances you cite of our government doing things that are forbidden, this will always be a secular nation by decree of Constitutional law.
#4 The persecution complex act gets tired. You have all the freedom to celebrate your faith in any way you wish, so long as it does not interfere with my right to do the same. You do not have the right to push your religion in my face on property my tax dollars pay for.

I truly hope you you are doing well and had a joyous Thanksgiving.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:39 AM   #7
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

Quote:
Originally Posted by theplatypus View Post
Since it's approaching fast and can't possibly be considered secular why haven't they banned Christmas?
Christmas most certainly IS a 100% religious holiday. The only one recognized by our government...at least for now....
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

Quote:
Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
Christmas most certainly IS a 100% religious holiday..
YOu agreed with me, holy cow it's Christmas miracle.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:46 AM   #9
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

Quote:
Christmas most certainly IS a 100% religious holiday.
This is true. A Pagan one at that.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:52 AM   #10
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Default Re: Thanksgiving violates separation of church and state...

Quote:
Originally Posted by revefsreleets View Post
Christmas most certainly IS a 100% religious holiday. The only one recognized by our government...at least for now....
What about Easter...and Good Friday? As a Federal Employee, I get Good Friday off each year...and I can't think of a singular non-secular reason for having that particular day off.

That being said, most people consider Thanksgiving as being a non-religious holiday and they base it off of giving Thanks to the "Indians" who were here to help us through the trying first few years of being on this great nation in it's earliest stages. Watch a Charlie Brown Thanksgiving and you'll see what I mean.

Most of us were raised with that believe, so there's nothing for the "evangelical atheist" to really grasp on too.

The way we are currently set up, it is tied very hard with consumerism (Black Friday anyone) which draws it that much further away from the religious sector. For that matter, the "evangelical atheist" has won quite a number of battles on the Christmas front. Happy Holidays is now the thing to say due to PC. It's tied more tightly with consumerism than even Thanksgiving is...and there are a great number of things associated with Christmas (Rudolph, Santa, Grinch, etc...) that draw attention away from it's initial intent of a religious holiday. I think that it's understood that it won't be completely abolished anytime in the near future...but that you can nip away at it from a number of angles to cover it with a non-religious context and win your battle that way.
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