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Old 03-25-2010, 06:20 AM   #41
GBMelBlount
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest View Post

this is brilliant!

take a 29 year old (probably dying of brain cancer) off the job market and paying taxes so we can put him in jail or support him on welfare for the rest of his life.

God bless george bush I, his war on drugs, and all his wackenhut friends.
How sad & tragic Tony. Thanks for posting.

I, like you, completely agree that it is a tragedy how the federal government is bullying states and individuals with laws violating their rights as in this example.

...and fortunately, now that Bush is gone and you and I both agreed that Obama is all about freedom and liberty, we won't have to worry about these things any more, right?

So, back to health care.

These 2 examples, one used by Obama showing a child whose parent died because they couldn't get a needed medical procedure due to lack of insurance, and your excellent Walmart example are both great cases for government healthcare, assuming that was your point.

Fortunately, the government has been kind and caring enough to not only step in and save us from the best health care system in the world but they have provided it to all 300,000,000 Americans, everyone except for themselves, of course.

Thank you friend, for without the intelligent and levelheaded reasoning of people like yourself we would never have been able to have the best health care system in the world saved from the clutches of free markets and made better and more fair by the government.

With the wonderful things government has done with everything else they are involved in, I can only imagine the future of heath care being brighter, wouldn't you agree?

Thanks again.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:30 AM   #42
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

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aww, c'mon... dont take your ball and go home.
Not much point in debating with someone who refuses to discuss the issues.

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i wanna hear more about this toilet paper shortage in '12.
You asked for it.

There'll be no toilet paper shortage and I never said there was. I said that it'll get a whole lot more expensive.
It's called "inflation".

As I said, the government's way in the red. Instead of balancing the books, they're creating even more programs they can't afford. Social Security is broke, and the government raided their trust fund and gutted a half a trillion from their budget right when the baby boomers are starting to retire.
Hospitals are already denying services to Medicare recipients because Medicare can't afford to pay the bill, and they ripped a half a trillion dollars out of *their* budget.
China isn't buying our debt anymore and Moody's is downgrading our credit rating in the next few years.

Obama's budget has us TRIPLING the debt over this decade. Thing is, you can't triple your debt when nobody's willing to lend you money. They can't tax the economy heavily enough to balance the books without crashing it. So just what can they do to support all this spending?
Either they cut the spending (which will end up looking like the situation Greece is in) or they'll fire up the presses and start printing money out of thin air.

When that happens, it will devalue all the money already in the economy. That's what inflation *is*.
In this case it'd be hyperinflation, devaluing the dollar to worthless.

It's not like it hasn't happened before.

Cash: Cheaper than firewood

If you have a rational counter-argument, I'm listening.
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:21 AM   #43
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

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dont get me wrong...

i miss the good ol days when the govt provided for affordable and easy access to crack cocaine (plus it created millions of jobs).

I miss the good ol days when we had the freedom of choice. When the Constitution actually stood for something.
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Old 03-25-2010, 03:15 PM   #44
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

I miss the good ol days when the Pirates were actually good.
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Old 03-25-2010, 04:22 PM   #45
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

The health care reform debacle has been the basis for my thesis, which, by posting here, I am not working on. LOL.

Anyways, after extensive study, I can tell you this: both political sides are basically shills for the corporate bottom line. Insurance companies don't care about people; they want healthy people who will pay, pay, pay and never want anything back. The government (regardless of who controls things) just does what their "constituency" (those who give them the most money) want; case in point, this health care reform bill.

While I am all for reform (because, let's face it, the current system is BROKEN), mandating that we are required to buy a corporation's product is catering to that industry, regardless of how you slice it. A better way to handle the broken system of health care (government programs included) is to cut the fat from the system.

A good start would be the government subsidies we've been paying to the insurance companies out of tax payer dollars since the eighties so that insurance companies can run Medicare. When the American taxpayer is paying a corporation almost $900 per subscriber per year for services that, prior to privatization to the insurance companies, cost about $200 per person, something's wrong. When hospitals will charge an uninsured person $300 for an Ace Bandage that cost them less than fifty cents per, charge Medicare almost $90 for the same thing, and then negotiate with insurance companies for the costs (which end up being about $20), you start to see where the profit-based system of health care is essentially at the root of the problem.

And when it comes to the uninsured, exactly how are they costing anybody anything? These reports keep coming out about how the uninsured use the emergency room as a family practice (which, of course, costs more), but that also assumes that the uninsured never pays their bills. While I won't deny that there are those who do shirk their responsibilities when it comes to paying bills, I have a hard time believing that all the uninsured never pay up when the piper comes calling. It's actually a form of class warfare to assume that uninsured people are irresponsible, first, for not buying insurance (who can afford it?), and second, for never paying their bills. These sorts of attacks on a certain segment of society actually serve to further widen the divisions among Americans that are perpetrated on us every day through the media.

We are encouraged to "belong" to a particular group with a particular label and with a particular ideology, and this actually strengthens a notion that we are all alone out there (despite the belonging to a group - lots of studies have been done on this), and we're not. We're part of a community, but these divisions in supposed ideological thought are creating divisions and animosity and a sort of environment like a daytime talk show that used to be hosted by a former Cincinnati mayor. And the divisions between us also make us believe that the poor are out to take everything we have and helping others - even those we don't know and who don't live in our community - is somehow wrong; that these people deserve their lots in life because, hell, they ASKED for it by being lazy and poor, right? They're just out for handout, right? They just don't want to work and want to take from those who do work.

But those cases are rather the exception than the rule. Most people actually do want to work and make it on their own. But it's the worst of the worst, the talk show fodder, that make the media, that we hear about, and then generalizations are made.

The argument has been made repeatedly in the media and regurgitated back by the people that the only way to fix this situation is to privatize everything. Because, in a capitalistic society, privatizing, in theory, creates competition in the marketplace. But that only works when other laws that prevent monopolization are in place. Certain regulations are required. Case in point, the monopolization of the media industry. Before the relaxation of FCC laws, no one owner could have more than 7 TV stations, 7 radio stations, and 7 print outlets, and no two could occupy the same market. That rule, along with a "Fairness Doctrine" that provided for the airing of opposing opinions gave the people a broader viewpoint from which to make decisions. That rule was relaxed in 1984, and it allowed an owner to own 12 of each kind of media outlet. In 1996, the rule was relaxed again, allowing owners to have as many stations as they wanted in any market, so long as their content didn't reach more than 39.5% of viewers. Well, in the era of cable TV, where penetration in market is 85%, clearly, THAT can be thrown out the window. Now, with the FCC rules slackened,there are only 8 corporate voices in the mainstream marketplace. That means audiences are only given 8 viewpoints that don't really differ all that much. Most outlets simply tow the corporate line.

Which is what the government is doing right now. Capitulating to the moneyed interests in health care, and it makes me sick. They say they care about the people, but they don't. The corporations don't, their paid shills in the government and the media don't, and, increasingly, people don't care about other people, either.

Do I have any ideas about how to fix it? Not really. All I know is that everything looks pretty broken to me.
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Old 03-25-2010, 04:25 PM   #46
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

I miss the good ol' days when the R's were the ones who (we thought) were tough.
So much for that - now it's all whining and lying and scraping the bottom of the barrel instead of actually debating anything.
That's what they call a reversal of fortune.
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:09 PM   #47
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

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I miss the good ol days when the Pirates were actually good.
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:19 PM   #48
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

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I miss the good ol' days when the R's were the ones who (we thought) were tough.
So much for that - now it's all whining and lying and scraping the bottom of the barrel instead of actually debating anything.
That's what they call a reversal of fortune.

You:

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Old 03-25-2010, 07:15 PM   #49
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

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sixstringlass

The health care reform debacle has been the basis for my thesis, which, by posting here, I am not working on. LOL.

both political sides are basically shills for the corporate bottom line.
Insurance companies don't care about people
The government (regardless of who controls things) just does what their "constituency" (those who give them the most money) want; case in point, this health care reform bill.

The argument has been made repeatedly in the media and regurgitated back by the people that the only way to fix this situation is to privatize everything. Because, in a capitalistic society, privatizing, in theory, creates competition in the marketplace. But that only works when other laws that prevent monopolization are in place.
Sorry to condense this.

Thanks for posting. I think a lot of what you are saying makes sense, especially about monopolies.

Since you've been doing a lot of research on this I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether you feel the increased government involvement will improve the price, quality and overall accessibility of health care services.

Is the government in some senses not a monopoly as well?
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:39 PM   #50
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Default Re: What's your idea of Health Care Reform?

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Sorry to condense this but since you've been doing a lot of research on this I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether you feel the increased government involvement will improve the price, quality and overall accessibility to health care services.
Well, for some it will increase access. For anyone making over $30,000 annually, it will only drain away money and funnel it into insurance company's pockets. Make no mistake about this: the Democrats involvement in this started out as something worthwhile debating, but ended up being nothing more than a bailout for insurance companies that are already raking it in hand over fist.

Honestly, increased government involvement won't have a whole lot of influence, insofar as access goes. When people are forced to buy something they couldn't afford before all this happened, it isn't going to make them suddenly go to the doctor. No, it's going to take more money away from them that they could have used for something else and force them to spend it on something they either couldn't afford or didn't want in the first place. There will still be unaffordable deductibles and copays and I wouldn't think that prices for insurance are going to down, what with this being a gift to those companies, anyway. No, most of the uninsured who are forced to buy insurance will buy it to avoid their tax returns getting reduced by the fines, but between the exhorbitant cost of medical care in general and the high cost deductibles, premiums, and copays, don't expect everybody to bum rush the doctor.

As far as cost, don't expect medical care prices to come down, because the regulations removed from the medical industry suppliers (and the costs of additional tests doctors perform to avoid malpractice suits) made the health care industry about the bottom line (ought to rename it the wealth care industry). Look, health care is 1/6 of the U.S. economy. Short of these corporations growing a heart (metaphorically speaking) and caring about whether people can actually afford their services, prices will stay the same or go up.

In sum, the practice of socializing costs and losses and privatizing profits and gains has really messed things up. The taxpayers can't keep funding the excesses of big business, especially when they give virtually nothing back. The amount of money spent by the health care industry on lobbying and campaign contributions in 2009 alone could have insured the whole of the uninsured population for at least half a decade.

With the unemployment rates going up, more and more people are without health insurance every day and can't afford to keep it going when COBRA can cost as much or more than $800 per month... when these people are laid off, no less. I think that society needs to stop commodifying everything and assigning a price tag to things and start thinking of the human element in things. I'm not saying that nobody and nothing should profit from hard work or enterprise. I'm just saying that when society is funding it, we ought to get something in return.
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