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Old 04-03-2006, 07:23 PM   #1
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Default Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

If, in fact, the US was interested in World dominance, and oil control, why would they let a JV guy like Chavez get into a position where even the Arab members of OPEC might be fighting a losing battle?

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1745467,00.html

Ch?vez seeks to peg oil at $50 a barrel

? Price could see Venezuela producing for 200 years
? Country's reserves may exceed Saudi Arabia's


Mark Milner
Monday April 3, 2006
The Guardian


Venezuelan president Hugo Ch?vez is poised to launch a bid to transform the global politics of oil by seeking a deal with consumer countries which would lock in a price of $50 a barrel. A long-term agreement at that price could allow Venezuela to count its huge deposits of heavy crude as part of its official reserves, which Caracas says would give it more oil than Saudi Arabia.
"We have the largest oil reserves in the world, we have oil for 200 years." Mr Ch?vez told the BBC's Newsnight programme in an interview to be broadcast tonight. "$50 a barrel - that's a fair price, not a high price."






The price proposed by Mr Ch?vez is about $15 a barrel below the current global level but a credible long-term agreement at about $50 a barrel could have huge implications for Venezuela's standing in the international oil community. According to US sources, Venezuela holds 90% of the world's extra heavy crude oil - deposits which have to be turned into synthetic light crude before they can be refined and which only become economic to operate with the oil price at about $40 a barrel. Newsnight cites a report from the US Energy Information Administrator, Guy Caruso, suggesting Venezuela could have more than a trillion barrels of reserves.
A $50-a-barrel lock-in would open the way for Venezuela, already the world's fifth-largest oil exporter, to demand a huge increase in its official oil reserves - allowing it to demand a big increase in its production allowance within Opec.
Venezuela's oil minister Raphael Ramirez told Newsnight in a separate interview that his country plans to ask Opec to formally recognise the uprating of its reserves to 312bn barrels (compared to Saudi Arabia's 262bn) when Mr Ch?vez hosts a gathering of Opec delegates in Caracas next month.
Venezuela's ambitious strategy to boost its standing in the global pecking order of oil producers by increasing the extent of its officially recognised reserves is likely to face opposition. Some countries will oppose the idea of a fixed price for the global oil market at well below existing levels. Others are unlikely to be happy with any diminution of their influence over world oil prices in favour of Venezuela.
Caracas's hopes for an increase in its standing would be a far cry from the days when Mr Ch?vez came to power after years of quota-busting during which Venezuela helped to keep oil prices down. "Seven years ago Venezuela was a US oil colony," said Mr Ch?vez.
As he seeks to bolster his country's standing on the world stage, the Venezuelan president has also introduced radical changes to the domestic oil industry. Last Friday his government announced that 17 oil companies had agreed to changes which will see 32 operating agreements become 30 joint ventures that will give the government greater say over the country's oil industry.
The original deals were signed in the 1990s as part of a drive to attract more investment into the country's oil industry. However Mr Ch?vez said the deals gave foreign companies too much and the government too little. Under the new arrangements state-run Petroleos de Venezuela will hold 60% of the joint ventures. "Now we are associates and this commits us to much more ... it's no longer a contract for doing a service, it's a strategic alliance," Mr Ch?vez told the companies that signed up.
The new arrangements were not universally welcomed by the oil companies. Exxon Mobil and the Italian energy company Eni have refused to sign up to the new arrangements.
Mr Ch?vez, a former paratrooper who has survived several attempts to oust him and who faces re-election in December, regards Venezuela's oil revenues as crucial to his plans to fight poverty. Critics accuse him of squandering the country's oil wealth on improvised social programmes.
The Venezuelan president used the Newsnight interview to attack the role of the International Monetary Fund in Latin America, where it has a reputation for pushing market-based reforms as the price of its help to countries struggling with their finances.
The Ch?vez government has helped a number of countries, including buying Argentinian and Ecuadorean bonds, with Mr Ch?vez arguing that he would like to see the IMF replaced by an International Humanitarian Fund.
Backstory
Hugo Ch?vez was born in 1954. The former paratroop colonel first came to prominence after a failed coup in 1992, for which he was jailed for two years. He was elected president of Venezuela in 1998, launching a social programme known as Bolivarianism, after the revolutionary Sim?n Bol?var, and reversing planned privatisations. In 2002 he survived a coup attempt and, two years later, a bid to unseat him in a referendum. He has close links with Cuba's Fidel Castro and has frequently clashed with the United States.
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Old 04-03-2006, 07:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

you gotta appreciate the fact that this chavez guy has balls of steel.

im not sure if i understand if hes proposing an offer to lock in at the price of $50 bucks a barrel for years to come? even though its supercrude this would still be really cheap 100 years down the road.

or is he looking to dump it at a present inflated price before it becomes obsolete? anyways it looks like hes in a win-win situation.
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Old 04-03-2006, 07:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

He can't possibly befriend us publicly...he's a "communist" or whatever...but let's face it, he's got the product, and there's only one guy on the block who's got the need and the money to pay for it. If we could open this up, we could tell the whole middle east to "suck it"...

This would also open mile-wide holes in that lame theory that the only reason we went to Iraq was oil. In fact, we went to Iraq because we should have never LEFT Iraq in the first place...oil is only important when you look at the big picture, and the UN/US STABILIZING oil. Somebody has to stabilize the forces controlling the blood of the world.

Last edited by Suitanim; 04-03-2006 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 04-03-2006, 08:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suitanim
He can't possibly befriend us publicly...he's a "communist" or whatever...but let's face it, he's got the product, and there's only one guy on the block who's got the need and the money to pay for it. If we could open this up, we could tell the whole middle east to "suck it"...

This would also open mile-wide holes in that lame theory that the only reason we went to Iraq was oil. In fact, we went to Iraq because we should have never LEFT Iraq in the first place...oil is only important when you look at the big picture, and the UN/US STABILIZING oil. Somebody has to stabilize the forces controlling the blood of the world.
i cant wait til fidel dies. chavez got a set of stones and whether he likes it or not, hes already thinking like an american.

so true on never leaving iraq. all my horses were hitched to schwartzkopfs waggon at the time. sometimes the generals really do know whats best. and he was a hell of a general. as far as the blood of the world, its funny how oil and religion mix. i dont think there will ever be any stabilization, but pulling $$$ out their pockets is probably a great start. we have definitely made the region far too powerful.
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Old 04-03-2006, 08:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

i got one word....ETHANOL

put the farmers back in business,and tell the arabs to go suck a big one!!!!
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Old 04-03-2006, 08:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

In Ecuador, for every $100 of crude taken out of the Ecuadorian rain forests, the oil companies receive $75. Of the remaining $25, three-quarters must go to paying off the foreign debt, which our country put them in. Most of the remainder covers military and other government expenses - which leaves about $2.50 for health, education, and programs aimed at helping the poor.

In November of last year President Bush went on a Latin American tour. He had tough remarks aimed at Venezuela's populist president Hugo Chavez. He called on Latin America to choose between two competing futures - an American-supported "vision of hope" and another that "seeks to roll back the democratic progress of the past two decades."

There IS a war in Latin America for their oil, it's not waged with tanks and guns, it's waged in espionage and complacent governments. There's a history in that region that you should read up on before you "dispel" the fact that our world economy isn't dictated by oil... and that war is no less an option than supporting a monarchy or dictator in our need for it.
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Old 04-03-2006, 10:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by j-dawg
In Ecuador, for every $100 of crude taken out of the Ecuadorian rain forests, the oil companies receive $75. Of the remaining $25, three-quarters must go to paying off the foreign debt, which our country put them in. Most of the remainder covers military and other government expenses - which leaves about $2.50 for health, education, and programs aimed at helping the poor.

In November of last year President Bush went on a Latin American tour. He had tough remarks aimed at Venezuela's populist president Hugo Chavez. He called on Latin America to choose between two competing futures - an American-supported "vision of hope" and another that "seeks to roll back the democratic progress of the past two decades."

There IS a war in Latin America for their oil, it's not waged with tanks and guns, it's waged in espionage and complacent governments. There's a history in that region that you should read up on before you "dispel" the fact that our world economy isn't dictated by oil... and that war is no less an option than supporting a monarchy or dictator in our need for it.

I completely agree Bro. I'm a veteran of 19yrs in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club (U.S. Navy) and still active duty. I've been to Somalia, Desert Shield/Storm, OIF (I and II), and a number of other deployemts to the Middle East.
The worlds economy is driven by oil. Without it, we would return to the proverbial age of steam, coal, and horses.
Yes, we have to stabilize the region, we have to insure a steady and dependable flow of oil, not just for ourselves, but for the world. Without it, more wars would break out, more "ethnic cleansing" in the lesser countries, etc.......
We shoulda finished it the first time.
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelShooter
I completely agree Bro. I'm a veteran of 19yrs in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club (U.S. Navy) and still active duty. I've been to Somalia, Desert Shield/Storm, OIF (I and II), and a number of other deployemts to the Middle East.
The worlds economy is driven by oil. Without it, we would return to the proverbial age of steam, coal, and horses. Yes, we have to stabilize the region, we have to insure a steady and dependable flow of oil, not just for ourselves, but for the world. Without it, more wars would break out, more "ethnic cleansing" in the lesser countries, etc.......
We shoulda finished it the first time.
this is simply not true....
Ethanol is a clean-burning, high-octane fuel that is produced from renewable sources. At its most basic, ethanol is grain alcohol, produced from crops such as corn. Because it is domestically produced, ethanol helps reduce America's dependence upon foreign sources of energy.

Pure, 100% ethanol is not generally used as a motor fuel; instead, a percentage of ethanol is combined with unleaded gasoline. This is beneficial because the ethanol:

decreases the fuel's cost
increases the fuel's octane rating
decreases gasoline's harmful emissions
Any amount of ethanol can be combined with gasoline, but the most common blends are:

E10 - 10% ethanol and 90% unleaded gasoline

E10 is approved for use in any make or model of vehicle sold in the U.S. Many automakers recommend its use because of its high performance, clean-burning characteristics. In 2004, about one-third of America's gasoline was blended with ethanol, most in this 10% variety.

E85 - 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline

E85 is an alternative fuel for use in flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs). There are currently more than 4 million FFVs on America's roads today, and automakers are rolling out more each year. In conjunction with more flexible fuel vehicles, more E85 pumps are being installed across the country. When E85 is not avaialble, these FFVs can operate on straight gasoline or any ethanol blend up to 85%.

It is important to note that it does not take a special vehicle to run on "ethanol". All vehicles can use E10 with no modifications to the engine. E85 is for use in a flexible fuel vehicle, so some people confuse "ethanol" with the blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

there was a special on cnn about this very subject last night. brazil claims by the end of next year,they'll be completly oil unindependant.
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
this is simply not true....
Ethanol is a clean-burning, high-octane fuel that is produced from renewable sources. At its most basic, ethanol is grain alcohol, produced from crops such as corn. Because it is domestically produced, ethanol helps reduce America's dependence upon foreign sources of energy.

Pure, 100% ethanol is not generally used as a motor fuel; instead, a percentage of ethanol is combined with unleaded gasoline. This is beneficial because the ethanol:

decreases the fuel's cost
increases the fuel's octane rating
decreases gasoline's harmful emissions
Any amount of ethanol can be combined with gasoline, but the most common blends are:

E10 - 10% ethanol and 90% unleaded gasoline

E10 is approved for use in any make or model of vehicle sold in the U.S. Many automakers recommend its use because of its high performance, clean-burning characteristics. In 2004, about one-third of America's gasoline was blended with ethanol, most in this 10% variety.

E85 - 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline

E85 is an alternative fuel for use in flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs). There are currently more than 4 million FFVs on America's roads today, and automakers are rolling out more each year. In conjunction with more flexible fuel vehicles, more E85 pumps are being installed across the country. When E85 is not avaialble, these FFVs can operate on straight gasoline or any ethanol blend up to 85%.

It is important to note that it does not take a special vehicle to run on "ethanol". All vehicles can use E10 with no modifications to the engine. E85 is for use in a flexible fuel vehicle, so some people confuse "ethanol" with the blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

there was a special on cnn about this very subject last night. brazil claims by the end of next year,they'll be completly oil unindependant.
MP, Good info. I was one of those "uninformed" concerning the E10 blend. But, realistically, until we take some of these lobbyists power away, I do not see it being readily available all over the place. Perhaps in certain areas. But, until our Government, most specifically Congress and the Senate, quits worrying about lining their pockets and more about our country then we will NOT have a viable, HIGHLY available alternative fuel. I remember Congress fighting the militarys annual raise back in the late 80's-early 90's, while at the same time voting a raise for themselves. We need to fight Big Brother first......then the rest will happen.
Thank you for the additional info. I will be looking for the E10 blend here in my area.
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Old 04-04-2006, 12:11 AM   #10
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Default Re: Let's dispel the "Oil War" nonsense once and for all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
this is simply not true....
Ethanol is a clean-burning, high-octane fuel that is produced from renewable sources. At its most basic, ethanol is grain alcohol, produced from crops such as corn. Because it is domestically produced, ethanol helps reduce America's dependence upon foreign sources of energy.

Pure, 100% ethanol is not generally used as a motor fuel; instead, a percentage of ethanol is combined with unleaded gasoline. This is beneficial because the ethanol:

decreases the fuel's cost
increases the fuel's octane rating
decreases gasoline's harmful emissions
Any amount of ethanol can be combined with gasoline, but the most common blends are:

E10 - 10% ethanol and 90% unleaded gasoline

E10 is approved for use in any make or model of vehicle sold in the U.S. Many automakers recommend its use because of its high performance, clean-burning characteristics. In 2004, about one-third of America's gasoline was blended with ethanol, most in this 10% variety.

E85 - 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline

E85 is an alternative fuel for use in flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs). There are currently more than 4 million FFVs on America's roads today, and automakers are rolling out more each year. In conjunction with more flexible fuel vehicles, more E85 pumps are being installed across the country. When E85 is not avaialble, these FFVs can operate on straight gasoline or any ethanol blend up to 85%.

It is important to note that it does not take a special vehicle to run on "ethanol". All vehicles can use E10 with no modifications to the engine. E85 is for use in a flexible fuel vehicle, so some people confuse "ethanol" with the blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

there was a special on cnn about this very subject last night. brazil claims by the end of next year,they'll be completly oil unindependant.
my step-father worked for ford's engine developmental dept in detroit in the 70's. he told me the story of the ethanal developmental program that went on. who better to make the purest grain alchohol other than southern moonshiners. ford actually employed 2 kentucky (i think) moonshiners and moved them up into the labs in michigan. he said these 2 hillbillies were pretty much freaked out by the technology and surroundings because they were used to working with such crude equipment.

the point of his story (which he told me over 10 years ago) was that ethanol was a hit. (this is going back to the lines at the gas pumps in the 70's) the govt. conviniently blocked the introduction of ethanol and introduced "methanaol".

for those who dont know the rest of the story, methanol pretty much rotted a car from the inside and public perception of ethanol being equated with methanol pretty much scrapped any government support for any further research.

to this day the oil companies and their shareholders are greatful.

its easy to grow corn.

alot easier than developing dinosaurs, killing and burying them and waiting for them to turn to oil.

when the oil is gone, there will be plenty of room for the corn to grow.
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