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Old 05-10-2011, 06:26 PM   #71
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
So?

I like how you can bomb a compound for days killing countless in the process and that's perfectly acceptable. Kill someone in a surgical strike and it's all of a sudden wrong and against the law.

This kind of duality today is astounding.
There's no "duality" if the law is crystal clear. The duality would be that the US can bomb compounds for days on end, whereas Cuba or Zaire cannot. The duality is, as pointed out in the article, the US lecturing Israel on assassinations while carrying them out themselves. There's no duplicity (the word I think you meant) or hypocrisy in the law as long as it is applied across the board.

I realize that as an American, it's essential for you to run to the defense of your government whenever anyone criticizes it, especially with regards to justifiable criticisms, but you're going to have to do better than "So?"
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:24 PM   #72
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

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Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
...but you're going to have to do better than "So?"
Yeah, and?
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:56 PM   #73
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

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Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
There's no "duality" if the law is crystal clear. The duality would be that the US can bomb compounds for days on end, whereas Cuba or Zaire cannot. The duality is, as pointed out in the article, the US lecturing Israel on assassinations while carrying them out themselves. There's no duplicity (the word I think you meant) or hypocrisy in the law as long as it is applied across the board.

I realize that as an American, it's essential for you to run to the defense of your government whenever anyone criticizes it, especially with regards to justifiable criticisms, but you're going to have to do better than "So?"
First off, please calm yourself. Don't assume you know the entirety of someone's political or social philosophies from a few random sentences on teh intahnetz.

I'm not defending any country. I was simply pointing out the obvious contradictions globally. In war people get killed. How they're killed is of course relevant, but let's not pretend one way is nicer than the other.

And no, I meant "duality." As in we seem to want most things both ways.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:52 PM   #74
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

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Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
First off, please calm yourself. Don't assume you know the entirety of someone's political or social philosophies from a few random sentences on teh intahnetz.

I'm not defending any country. I was simply pointing out the obvious contradictions globally. In war people get killed. How they're killed is of course relevant, but let's not pretend one way is nicer than the other.

And no, I meant "duality." As in we seem to want most things both ways.
OK. I think it's my Philosophy training rearing it's ugly head here, but "duality" always brings up the Cartesian mind/body thing for me. But duality it is.

The long and the short of it is that way too many people are getting away with way too many crimes by simply saying "It's war, dammit! What part of war don't you understand, you glue-sniffing, patchouli-wearing, tree-hugging Hitler-appeaser????"

... or words to that effect. Killing an entire household of unarmed people who have only been tried in the court of public opinion, and even that only thanks to the mainstream media, and in an allied country, to boot.... what part of this sits well with you?
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Old 05-11-2011, 04:02 PM   #75
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

It doesn't.

I was simply pointing out the bureaucracy that has been instilled into all of us that it's perfectly acceptable to bomb numerous dwellings in a city block killing any number of soldiers, civilians..women, children...but OH NOO..OBL GOT SHOT IN THE HEAD!!!!1

Point is: Deserved or not, we're talking about killing a human being. Is one way really better than another considering the end result is the same?
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Old 05-13-2011, 02:25 AM   #76
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

More exceedingly well thought out commentary:

Published on Saturday, May 7, 2011 by Guernica Magazine
Noam Chomsky: My Reaction to Osama bin Laden’s Death
We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic.
by Noam Chomsky

It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”

Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.


There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.


We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.


There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president.


Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”


There is much more to say, but even the most obvious and elementary facts should provide us with a good deal to think about.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:44 AM   #77
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
More exceedingly well thought out commentary:

Published on Saturday, May 7, 2011 by Guernica Magazine
Noam Chomsky: My Reaction to Osama bin Laden’s Death
We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic.
by Noam Chomsky

It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”

Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.


There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.


We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.


There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president.

Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”

There is much more to say, but even the most obvious and elementary facts should provide us with a good deal to think about.
As anyone who was around here prior to November 2008 (when previous management banned me for an election night discourse) may recall I am no fan of George W.

But with regard to the Chomsky piece above, Andrew Sullivan nails it

Oh, and "uncontroversially, Bushs' crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s." Uncontroversially. It's that word that proves you are listening to a fanatic.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....bin-laden.html
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Old 05-13-2011, 01:30 PM   #78
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

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Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
OK. I think it's my Philosophy training rearing it's ugly head here, but "duality" always brings up the Cartesian mind/body thing for me. But duality it is.

The long and the short of it is that way too many people are getting away with way too many crimes by simply saying "It's war, dammit! What part of war don't you understand, you glue-sniffing, patchouli-wearing, tree-hugging Hitler-appeaser????"

... or words to that effect. Killing an entire household of unarmed people who have only been tried in the court of public opinion, and even that only thanks to the mainstream media, and in an allied country, to boot.... what part of this sits well with you?
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Old 05-13-2011, 06:06 PM   #79
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

It appears retired Justice Stevens, who was no consistent fan of the approach taken by the Bush Administration to the "War On Terror' has a different take from that of legal scholar Noam Chomsky regarding the killing of OBL

Justice Stevens says bin Laden killing legally justified

Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens has voiced support for the killing of al Qaeda terrorist leader Osama bin Laden by U.S. forces, saying it was legally justified.

In remarks Thursday evening at his alma mater, Northwestern University, the 91-year-old former justice said the order by President Barack Obama for the covert mission by U.S. Navy SEALs was "to remove an enemy who had been trying every day to attack the United States," according to two people who attended a symposium and dinner that was closed to the media.

Stevens said he was pleased the president took the risky decision to launch the May 2 commando assault on bin Laden's compound in Pakistan. The justice added, "I must say I was very proud of the SEALs."

No sitting member of the Supreme Court has commented on the bin Laden killing and is not likely to, since current or related executive branch issues may someday come before them.

There have been legal questions surrounding whether U.S. and international law would permit a unilateral executive decision to kill a terrorist leader with no ties to any government. Attorney General Eric Holder said the day after the mission, "It's lawful to target an enemy commander in the field."

As founder and head of al Qaeda, bin Laden was viewed by the administration as a combatant actively involved in past and current hostilities against the United States and other countries.

The insistence by Obama officials that the killing was justified come despite bin Laden not being armed when commandos stormed his third-floor room. Those officials insist the Saudi native "resisted" and made no clear indication he would surrender.

Stevens said based on his knowledge of the facts, "I haven't the slightest doubt it was entirely appropriate for American forces to act" as they did. "It was not merely to do justice and avenge September 11."

The Wall Street Journal Law Blog first reported Stevens' remarks..


http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/13/sco...ex.html?hpt=T2

For anyone who thinks Stevens is a knee jerk supporter of whatever it takes to go after Al Qaeda, check out his linked opinion in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 548 U.S. 557 (2006)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/05-184.ZS.html

Or you can believe Chomsky has it right

Last edited by Atlanta Dan; 05-13-2011 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 05-14-2011, 12:40 AM   #80
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Default Re: Osama Bin Laden is Dead

Unfortunately for Stevens and Obama, the United Nations - not them - adjudicates international law and the laws governing war crimes. Fortunately for them, there's no way in hell that the UN is ever going to do anything meaningful towards the United States, no matter how heinous the crimes of our government. If you're the capo di tutti capi, you get to do what you want. That's just the way the world works.

Still, none of the stark realities of global politics change the fact that it is not only flatly illegal to send black ops agents uninvited into another country and murder everyone in a private residence - unarmed each and every one of them - just because your propaganda says they are guilty of something. In fact, contrary to that idiot Holder's statement, it is not "lawful to target an enemy commander in the field" as was pointed out in the earlier article by Marjorie Cohn.

Will the US get away with this? Of course they will. It's almost been forgotten already. Was it legal. No. No part of it was legal. It's very, very important to call Chomsky a fanatic, and just as important to ignore that Stevens offers a personal opinion with zero legal support. Whatever you do, don't for a moment think why it would likewise be legal for al Qaeda to send commandos to kill Bush and dump his body in the ocean.

I'm eager to hear what part of Chomsky's comment is actually controversial.
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