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Old 08-08-2011, 09:48 PM   #11
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Default Re: CB battle

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Originally Posted by Dodens Grav View Post
Anybody that thinks Curtis Brown will surpass Bryant McFadden this year doesn't really understand the situation. McFadden will be the #2 corner all season barring injuries. It's possible that Keenan Lewis beats out Gay for the nickel position before the season begins, but there's no way Brown even sees the field on anything but special teams (again, barring injury) until later on in the season. The kid's only had a playbook for a couple weeks. And Cortez Allen might not even see the active roster last year if he even avoids being put on the practice squad. He's by far the most raw and least ready cornerback on the entire roster.
I don't think the coaching staff understands the situation.Before you start, let's not claim them to be the smartest personnel in the NFL at picking rosters and starting players. I mean they're better than 25+ other teams at it, but they continuously make stupid mistakes that an average fan can spot from a mile away. You guys have to remember that Pouncey starting had little to do with him playing extremely well at camp. It was the injury to Justin Hartshit that allowed him to start day 1. If Hartshit was 100%, Pouncey would have been RG the entire season.

Bringing in Randle El and Arnaz Battle another hilarious blunder. If they would have let Sanders/Brown play from day 1 (let's be real, the world isn't going to end letting a rookie start at #3 receiver), maybe a guy like Brown wouldn't of been lost in the Super Bowl.

They are also absolutely horrible at finding quality DBs. Since Tomlin arrived, they've brought in guys like Gay, Lewis, Joe Burnett, Keiwan Ratliff,Anthony Madison, and others. I was horrified that a special teams ace saw the field during two playoff games. I mean what the hell were they thinking? They were so desperate 2 years ago that he had to bring back Bryant McFadden who was coming off a horrible year in Arizona.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:57 AM   #12
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Default Re: CB battle

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Originally Posted by Dodens Grav View Post
Anybody that thinks Curtis Brown will surpass Bryant McFadden this year doesn't really understand the situation.
Such an absolute statement deserves at least some explanation.

I understand it's unlikely Brown takes over #2, but if there ever were a chance in the Steelers defense for a rookie CB to start, this is it. It's definitely possible. Pouncey at center last year shows it is. Hopefully the experience with Maurkice last year will open up Tomlin's mind so he'll actually play young players.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:25 AM   #13
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Default Re: CB battle

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Originally Posted by SoCalFan View Post
We just got to hope Gay made strides to straighten up his game in the off season!The coaching staff is around these guys on a regular basis and must see something,im putting my trust in the coaches...Awwww shit,I forgot about B.A....
Wrong side of the ball!
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: CB battle

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Originally Posted by cloppbeast View Post
Such an absolute statement deserves at least some explanation.

I understand it's unlikely Brown takes over #2, but if there ever were a chance in the Steelers defense for a rookie CB to start, this is it. It's definitely possible. Pouncey at center last year shows it is. Hopefully the experience with Maurkice last year will open up Tomlin's mind so he'll actually play young players.
There was no offseason, the kid had a playbook for 2 weeks, and playing in a zone blitz is more difficult to grasp as a rookie than playing on the offensive line. It took Joe Haden, a top 10 pick on a bad team with a full offseason, several games to make the starting lineup. Devin McCourty was forced into a starting spot due to injuries. It's very uncommon for a rookie to start on a veteran-laden team to begin with, especially when you're talking about a late 3rd round pick at a position with incumbent starters returning. A lot of people are projecting the successes and advancements of Crezdon Butler and Curtis Brown simply because they don't like Bryant McFadden and William Gay and are merely hoping, not actually thinking. Of course any time a backup beats out a starter through pure play it's a good thing and makes the team better, but let's put it this way: it is very highly unlikely that Curtis Brown starts a game in 2011 without injuries playing a significant role. He would first have to earn the nickel role over Gay, Lewis, and Butler. It's very possible that Curtis Brown has more raw talent than any other CB other than Taylor on the roster, but he still has a lot to learn and a lot of trust to earn before LeBeau would (rightfully) feel comfortable throwing him in there.



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Originally Posted by DanRooney View Post
I don't think the coaching staff understands the situation.Before you start, let's not claim them to be the smartest personnel in the NFL at picking rosters and starting players. I mean they're better than 25+ other teams at it, but they continuously make stupid mistakes that an average fan can spot from a mile away. You guys have to remember that Pouncey starting had little to do with him playing extremely well at camp. It was the injury to Justin Hartshit that allowed him to start day 1. If Hartshit was 100%, Pouncey would have been RG the entire season.
Of course "stupid mistakes" are easy to spot when you don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. Obviously no organization is immune to making personnel mistakes, but the amount of fans that genuinely believe that they would do a better job at running a professional football team is laughable. Everybody has opinions on personnel decisions. Disagreeing with the organization's moves doesn't make you right.

The second half of your statement I have no basis for believing. I'm sure that Hartwig having had shoulder surgery played some role in his release, but to suggest that Pouncey's performance itself had "little" to do with him being named the starting center is pretty unfounded. Do you honestly think the Steelers would have gone into the season with a rookie at center whose backup was a 2nd year undrafted player if they weren't comfortable with the way the rookie performed? Hartwig's losing his job had a lot to do with him really sucking and Pouncey exceeding people's expectations. Hartwig also being injured did not help, but there's no way you can say that he would have still been the starting center if fully healthy because you have no basis for that claim.

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Originally Posted by DanRooney View Post
Bringing in Randle El and Arnaz Battle another hilarious blunder. If they would have let Sanders/Brown play from day 1 (let's be real, the world isn't going to end letting a rookie start at #3 receiver), maybe a guy like Brown wouldn't of been lost in the Super Bowl.
Frankly, this is all nonsense. The previous season was played in an uncapped year with no restrictions on spending, so it did no harm to bring in these receivers, and in fact both moves were absolutely prudent. Battle was brought in for special teams purposes and he significantly improved that unit. As for the Randle El signing, you have to recall the predicament that the Steelers were in. Every position in the receiver squad outside of Hines Ward was questionable. Santonio Holmes was just dumped, Mike Wallace, a still somewhat raw 3rd round pick, was being relied upon to make a big jump from year 1 to year 2 as a starter, Limas Sweed was lost for the entire season with injuries, and Emmanuel Sanders and Antonio Brown were just drafted, and at that without the highest of hopes. Randle El was brought in as an insurance policy against leveraging the future on unproven youngsters until they proved themselves. Randle El saw the field a lot less after they did so. This is exactly how it should have worked. He also served a critical role in developing these receivers by taking on a position of veteran leadership alongside Ward. Therefore, any stunt in the growth of the young receivers that was potentially caused by Randle El starting off as the third receiver was assuredly offset by his teaching them. He was also an easy cut, despite what Colbert said.

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Originally Posted by DanRooney View Post
They are also absolutely horrible at finding quality DBs. Since Tomlin arrived, they've brought in guys like Gay, Lewis, Joe Burnett, Keiwan Ratliff,Anthony Madison, and others. I was horrified that a special teams ace saw the field during two playoff games. I mean what the hell were they thinking? They were so desperate 2 years ago that he had to bring back Bryant McFadden who was coming off a horrible year in Arizona.
You need to adjust your unrealistic expectations according to a player's potential. The highest drafted cornerback that you name was Keiwan Ratliff, and he was a 2nd round pick of the Bengals, the team with the worst scouting department in the league. He was brought in here strictly for depth purposes and was never meant to contribute significantly. Anthony Madison was an undrafted free agent and only earned a roster spot due to his special teams play. Joe Burnett was a 5th round pick and did about as well as one would expect of a 5th round CB thrown into a nickel role in his rookie year. Gay was also a 5th round pick and is absolutely an above average player for a 5th round cornerback. Gay was the 170th pick of his draft; ostensibly the 170th best player in his draft class. How much do you really expect from him? Do you expect the Steelers to pull out a diamond in the rough in every round that for some mysterious reason 31 other teams are not savvy enough to identify? You should be happy with the production that Gay has given the Steelers relative to his draft position.

Now that leaves Keenan Lewis. Lewis' rookie season was plagued by nagging injuries that prevented him from seeing any significant time. He was given the opportunity to shine in the preseason the next year, but his mental makeup, not his physical attributes, failed him in the preseason. At this point he was relegated to special teams play, where he continued to blunder a few more times. Frankly, I don't care how good of a special teams player Lewis can be. Curtis Brown is purportedly an excellent special teams player and can take his spot on that squad. What I'm interested in is if Lewis can perform at his position. He flashed a good deal in training camp and preseason last year and from all reports is doing so again this year. I have read that Lewis is the only DB that can consistently run with Wallace deep. He has a lot of potential. His story with the Steelers is obviously not completely written, so don't be quick to dismiss him as a bust just yet. The better Lewis does, the better the Steelers are as a team. We must wait to see what happens during the preseason games, but I feel that he has a chance to earn the nickel role to start the season. He is entering his third season and therefore should have the system down fully, so it should just be down to his natural abilities.

Last edited by Steelersfan87; 08-09-2011 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:05 AM   #15
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Default Re: CB battle

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Originally Posted by MDSteel15 View Post
Wrong side of the ball!
I have assisted in coaching football on the HS level and believe me,ALL coaches have feedback on players in meetings on both sides of the ball,remember the O and the D play each other in practice!Besides,just another opp. to take a stab at him!
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: CB battle

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Originally Posted by Dodens Grav View Post
Of course "stupid mistakes" are easy to spot when you don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. Obviously no organization is immune to making personnel mistakes, but the amount of fans that genuinely believe that they would do a better job at running a professional football team is laughable. Everybody has opinions on personnel decisions. Disagreeing with the organization's moves doesn't make you right.
Not to mention when the "mistakes" are viewed with the added benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: CB battle

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Originally Posted by Dodens Grav View Post
There was no offseason, the kid had a playbook for 2 weeks, and playing in a zone blitz is more difficult to grasp as a rookie than playing on the offensive line. It took Joe Haden, a top 10 pick on a bad team with a full offseason, several games to make the starting lineup. Devin McCourty was forced into a starting spot due to injuries. It's very uncommon for a rookie to start on a veteran-laden team to begin with, especially when you're talking about a late 3rd round pick at a position with incumbent starters returning. A lot of people are projecting the successes and advancements of Crezdon Butler and Curtis Brown simply because they don't like Bryant McFadden and William Gay and are merely hoping, not actually thinking. Of course any time a backup beats out a starter through pure play it's a good thing and makes the team better, but let's put it this way: it is very highly unlikely that Curtis Brown starts a game in 2011 without injuries playing a significant role. He would first have to earn the nickel role over Gay, Lewis, and Butler. It's very possible that Curtis Brown has more raw talent than any other CB other than Taylor on the roster, but he still has a lot to learn and a lot of trust to earn before LeBeau would (rightfully) feel comfortable throwing him in there.
I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Many Steelers fans have a grass is greener mentality for pretty much every thing and exagerate like no other. How many complaints have I had to listen to about our secondary just because Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Aaron Rodgers pass well against us. Here's a ******* clue: HOF quarterback pretty much pass well against every defense -that's whey they're HOF quarterbacks!

[Cloppbeast steps off his soapbox]

I sincerely hope Crezdon Butler can make an impact this season - whether in nickel or dime packages, special teams, even if not as a starter. He's had a full year to learn the system, and from what I hear, he's althletically gifted, he has a good head on his shoulders, and he's a hard worker. Albeit, often what one hears and what one eventually sees differ greatly. We shall see.
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:11 PM   #18
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Default Re: CB battle

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You need to adjust your unrealistic expectations according to a player's potential.
That statement by Gravs sums it up for me. "Give the Governor a HURUMPH!". A player's potential does not always translate into a superstar athlete. Otherwise, Sweed would have been a pro bowler by now and Kendrel Bell would be looking at the HOF. I will always root for young talent to succeed and push this team forward, but you can't expect a rookie, during a lockout year, to come in and make a huge contribution (such as becoming the #2 corner).

Additionally, it has been stated that our defense was torched by the top QBs. In thinking back, we had key injuries to Troy and BMac that persisted for the second half of the year and into the post season. I can't remember the health of the secondary during the Brees game, but I don't think we can bitch too loudly given the team (through all the injuries and suspensions) still made it to the big dance. It sucked that they lost in the big one, but at least this team continues to show they are relevant at the end of the year. When we are watching our team play the very last game of the NFL season, other fans either live vicariously through us or turn into haters ... and we shouldn't take that for granted.
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: CB battle

I think Gay is ok as the Nickel, the problem comes up when opposing O Coordinators realize he is on the field, and thus, move a 1 or 2 WR into the slot and Gay has to cover them. I think he's ok defending the other team's #3 or #4 Receiver, but can't physically compete with the other team's top guys. He's ok as a blitzer, but thats not really the role we have in mind for a CB on a regular basis is it? I agree with those of you who say he'll certainly make the roster....but I don't have to like it do I? The plan to make him our starter didn't work, and Nickel CB is the perfect spot to get some reps in for a younger guy IMO
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: CB battle

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I think Gay is ok as the Nickel, the problem comes up when opposing O Coordinators realize he is on the field, and thus, move a 1 or 2 WR into the slot and Gay has to cover them. I think he's ok defending the other team's #3 or #4 Receiver, but can't physically compete with the other team's top guys. He's ok as a blitzer, but thats not really the role we have in mind for a CB on a regular basis is it? I agree with those of you who say he'll certainly make the roster....but I don't have to like it do I? The plan to make him our starter didn't work, and Nickel CB is the perfect spot to get some reps in for a younger guy IMO
Not disagreeing with what you said here, but won't opposing coordinators move their #1 or #2 receivers to the slot against young cornerbacks just as you say they did against Gay? Not sure if that helps the team, unless you're indicating those young CBs are better than Gay in the nickel.
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