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An important history lesson for you TRUE Steelers fans!
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:15 AM   #161
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Default Re: Not so fast

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Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
But you're missing a very important and very basic point: the Steelers own the blueprint for success in the NFL over the past decade if not the past four decades. Not the Cheats. Not Indy. Not the Packers. The Steelers.
Well the NFL has changed even since 08 when they won last. Golden boy QBs and the receivers they throw to can't be touched and defensive players are scared to even make a tackle now for fear of having to send a check to the NFL.

I just saw an article about how there has been more scoring in the first two game than ever before and that QBs have thrown for a record number of passing yard so far. THIS is want Goodell want whether we like it or not. Old school smash mouth football is a thing of the past. The NFL wants 51-45 scores and QBs throwing for 500 yards a game. Goodell has decided that intimidating defensive teams with bruising running games are boring and implemented rules to make them non competitive in today's game.

There are a myriad of issues right now and I for one would like the FO to change something if things don't improve in the next two games. I don't care if it means firing Arians or shaking things up a bit, if the current formula continues to struggle it's time to get back on track before the rest of the league leaves them in the dust.
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:30 AM   #162
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Default Re: Not so fast

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I just saw an article about how there has been more scoring in the first two game than ever before and that QBs have thrown for a record number of passing yard so far. .
that has very little to do with goodell or rule changes.

those in the know predicted this well before the season even began. the lack of offseason conditioning and ota's coupled with changeover in coaching staffs + inexperienced rookies would have experienced offenses going "no huddle" and leaving defenses gassed and confused.

so by reading that article you really didnt tap into a wealth of knowledge, you just allowed yourself to become further confused of what is really going on.

wait till december and watch how the tides turn.
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:31 AM   #163
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The NFL wants 51-45 scores and QBs throwing for 500 yards a game. Goodell has decided that intimidating defensive teams with bruising running games are boring and implemented rules to make them non competitive in today's game
which is why i only watch the steelers.

other games are so boring.
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Old 09-23-2011, 07:45 AM   #164
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Default Re: Not so fast

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This ridiculous hypothetical never gets applied both ways. When you go on and on about Ben's two Super Bowls, you never mention he's had one of the most dominant defenses of all time. Yet of course, you'll use the situational excuses to downgrade those whom you want to downgrade. Selective logic at its best.

Clearly you didn't watch many of the Colts' games last year. They had an equally bad, if not worse, offensive line than Ben's. Which explains why they used their first 2 draft picks on offensive tackes.

Kerry Collins has already taken 5 sacks against teams not known for their front seven, putting him on pace for 40 on the season. Once the Colts start playing better defenses, the pace will surely increase, starting this week with the Steelers.

Manning, on the other hand, only took 16 sacks last year, despite having a lack-luster offensive line. He knows how to get rid of the damn ball!

In almost half as many seasons, Ben has already taken 50 more sacks than Manning. You think this is solely because he has a worse offensive line?

How about Tom Brady? During his record breaking season, he attempted 578 passes taking 21 sacks. The very next season, Matt Cassell, utilizing the same offensive line, took 47 sacks on 510 attempts. And Matt Cassell, by the way, is a half decent starting quarterback.

Instead of just arbitrarily and subjectively comparing situations to come to whatever conclusion you want, perhaps you should just look at the facts. Comparing how different quarterbacks handle the same situation, you should see the quarterback throwing the ball has a lot more to do with it than the offensive line protecting him.

Your arbitrary hypotheticals are ridiculous. If you really think Tom Brady wouldn't do better on the Steelers than Ben, then I'm glad you aren't running the Steelers.
Care to reply to my post? You don't remember any of the fourth quarter comevacks and game winning drives Ben has under his belt? Since u like to look at facts check out hiscareer completion percentage avg yards per completion qb rating etc. He's right up there with some of the greats. They let him play his style of football. Sacks are a part of it.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:19 AM   #165
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Brady has had possibly the greatest protection ever given a qb.
Then why did Matt Cassell take 47 sacks with the same offensive line Brady consistently takes 20 with?

There, one sentence. Does that meet your attention span requirments?

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Old 09-23-2011, 08:35 AM   #166
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Default Re: Not so fast

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allow me to take an even lower road here and laugh.
He made a very witty insult, so I can understand why you would think it funny.

Telling somebody "**** You", how brilliant! I wish I would have thought of that one first. lol
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:42 AM   #167
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Care to reply to my post? You don't remember any of the fourth quarter comevacks and game winning drives Ben has under his belt?
I did reply to your post. Weren't you the guy who said Manning or Brady would take 60 sacks if they played on the Steelers? I debunked that ridiculous assertion.

As far as Ben's comebacks, I give him credit. He's got ice in his vains, I give him that.

Quote:
Since u like to look at facts check out hiscareer completion percentage avg yards per completion qb rating etc. He's right up there with some of the greats. They let him play his style of football. Sacks are a part of it.
Those stats overlook his biggest weakness, taking sacks. If sacks counted as attempts, or if sack yards lost came off of his average per completion, his stats wouldn't look nearly as good. Whoever invented those statistics did Ben a favor when they didn't account for sacks.

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Old 09-23-2011, 08:52 AM   #168
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Default Re: Not so fast

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Lovely.

You bring up the point that some of us are trying to make. Brady, Manning and Brees have game plans in place that have them getting rid of the ball in a hurry to keep pressure off of them. They spread defenses out and force LBs to cover RBs and TEs as well as safeties covering WRs. They then proceed to dink and dunk and keep backing defenses up. The more a defense starts getting picked apart, the more they back off blitzing and pressuring and instead keep dropping into coverage. This then allows the offense to start catching them off guard with some runs here and there. They basically use the pass to set up the run which is opposite to what most teams do. Add to the fact that dropping into coverage constantly and chasing receivers all over the field, wears down defenses in a hurry.

We all know that the Steelers have a porous O line that is always in flux. What gets me is that the game plan never changes. They have speedy receivers that can run quick slants and screens and RBs that can catch passes out of the backfield yet they continue to have Ben drop back and wait, looking for those 60 yard bombs down the field. It just seems like thing could be done to counteract the poor O line play but nothing changes.

The NFL has changed whether we like it or not and to be competitive the Steelers need to adapt. That doesn't mean that they can't have an effective running game, it just means that scoring points is at a premium in the NFL now. The rules have been changed to encourage more passing and more scoring because Goodell thinks that is what fans want to see. THAT is why I have a hard time understanding why the Steelers keep avoiding addressing the O line and secondary issues. In fact, I say screw the secondary because the way the rules are, they aren't allowed to play football anyway. No, just load up on offense and outscore your opponent every week.

It's no coincidence that the Steelers won their two recent SBs by going with a more pass happy attack. That is why the Pats, Saints, Packers and Colts have all won recently too. Teams like the Ravens and Jets who are run first offenses haven't made it there have they? That is because you need to score points to win these games. You simply aren't going to be able to beat the Saints, Packers, Pats and Colts with a 10-3 or 13-10 score. They will score points on you and you need to score in order to win.

With the aging defense that the Steelers have, the offense needs to have long, successful drives to take the pressure off of them. It doesn't matter if you run the ball or dink and dunk pass it up the field, sustained drives to keep the defense fresh are important.

Look, we aren't saying that the Steelers suck and I will root for them till the day I die even through the inevitable 6-10 and 5-11 seasons to come. We are simply stating areas that the Steelers need to improve in or adapt in to keep their competitiveness in a changing game. Basically, if they don't have a good O line, find ways for Ben to get rid of the ball earlier and keep him from getting pounded. I was under the impression that Arians and Ben were working on this in training camp but have yet to see it in a game.
I agree Ben would benefit from a system which took advantage of a defense's weakness and was designed to get rid of the ball quickly, at least when it comes to taking sacks. But, I still don't think Ben would do well in such a system. I also don't think an objective analysis would find any system in which Ben would do better than Brady, Manning, or Rodgers, including ours.

Cassell took 47 sacks in the same system Brady takes 20. Collins is on pace to take 40 sacks in the same system Manning takes less than 20. You should see, then, it's not all about the system.

The Steelers system makes quarterbacks more prone to take sacks, but that doesn't necessarily mean Ben would take significantly less sacks in a west cost system. He'd probably still pump fake about 10 times before each throw. The west coast offensive certainly is not Ben's forte, I think you would agree.

You guys seem to underrate a quarterback's role in taking sacks.

Last edited by cloppbeast; 09-23-2011 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:09 AM   #169
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Default Re: Not so fast

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Originally Posted by cloppbeast View Post
I agree Ben would benefit from a system which took advantage of a defense's weakness and was designed to get rid of the ball quickly, at least when it comes to taking sacks. But, I still don't think Ben would do well in such a system. I also don't think an objective analysis would find any system in which Ben would do better than Brady, Manning, or Rodgers, including ours.

Cassell took 47 sacks in the same system Brady takes 20. Collins is on pace to take 40 sacks in the same system Manning takes less than 20. You should see, then, it's not all about the system.

The Steelers system makes quarterbacks more prone to take sacks, but that doesn't necessarily mean Ben would take significantly less sacks in a west cost system. He'd probably still pump fake about 10 times before each throw. The west coast offensive certainly is not Ben's forte, I think you would agree.

You guys seem to underrate a quarterback's role in taking sacks.
I agree with what you are saying with respect to Collins and Cassel to a point. However, both teams have to take the reigns in when it comes to those QB's, Manning typically goes to the line with 3 or 4 plays and is basically an OC on the field. Brady is similiar. Collins is unable to do that right now because of his limited time in the Colts complex offense. Cassel is just horrible. I don't think your intent is to say those two (Collins and cassel) are in the same league as Ben but thats the way it comes across. I notice that when the Steelers go "no huddle" and Ben is calling his plays from the line the sacks go down and the tempo increases.
IMO the Steelers should use the no huddle more and IMO our scoring would go up and sacks would be down.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:28 AM   #170
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Default Re: Not so fast

As we all know with the defensive line starters and their capable backups- this team doesn't throw them into the fire regardless of potential - they have their system and they know when they will feel comfortable enough putting a supposedly unproven guy in (although in my mind - Hood has more than proven himself with last season's performance)

I'll take that same stance with the no-huddle. Ben and Bruce said the young receivers and young offensive linemen need to get with the program before they feel comfortable enough to employ it more often. If I get up early and often on teams, I'd take a stab at trying it at least 1 or 2 series a game. The flip side to this is that while they might not be clicking enough now to take it out for a spin, maybe this will be a better recipe for later in the year when some teams aren't expecting it out of them.

Something about this team not showing all their cards. That's a speculative statement, but we tend to take it to another level when the chips are down . . .

My concern is with teams recent success exploiting tricky dick lebeau's defense - he has one heck of a legacy as a player and a coach - just hoping he has some tricks up his sleeve.
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