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Old 01-27-2012, 01:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

No matter who the coach is, no matter who the star QB is, the Rooney's run this game, PERIOD. They are the winnigest team in the NFL for the past 41 years(since the merger). They have won the most Super Bowls. They have had the most hall of famers, and possibly more coming in the next few years.

Big Ben is a legit Franchise QB. The fact that they can not keep him up right is a concern. You can blame it on the line, you can blame it on injuries, but at some point you need to adjust if you are smart coaches. The fact that we already saw how well Ben plays when he gets rid of the ball quick should prove that it is possible(Pats and Titans game). Kill the ego already and do the smart thing. ADJUST damn it. We need Big Ben here for 5 more years not 2 more years.
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:29 PM   #12
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

Quote:
Originally Posted by OX1947 View Post
No matter who the coach is, no matter who the star QB is, the Rooney's run this game, PERIOD. They are the winnigest team in the NFL for the past 41 years(since the merger). They have won the most Super Bowls. They have had the most hall of famers, and possibly more coming in the next few years.

Big Ben is a legit Franchise QB. The fact that they can not keep him up right is a concern. You can blame it on the line, you can blame it on injuries, but at some point you need to adjust if you are smart coaches. The fact that we already saw how well Ben plays when he gets rid of the ball quick should prove that it is possible(Pats and Titans game). Kill the ego already and do the smart thing. ADJUST damn it. We need Big Ben here for 5 more years not 2 more years.


I agree with you. It will be great to have Ben around for at least 5 years, probably more.
It's all about the game plan and the playbook. 2 backs at times, spread the field, perfect the quick slants, block and protect the QB.
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

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Originally Posted by former RB View Post
Forums like this are good for fan discussion, but I find it laughable - and sometimes disgusting- to read some of the posts.

I can read a post and tell you with 99% certainty and accuracy whether or not the poster ever played the game or understands anything about the game. I am positive that 90% of the people who post here don't know the grade school fundamantals of the game. But then, thats why people love guys like Pouncey. Most teams play a 3-4. A center gets more than enough help against a 3-4. But when Pouncey has to play a 4-3 and handle 2 gaps, he gets his lunch taken from him. With most teams playing 3-4, centers get guard help from both guards on almost every play. The nose tackle in a 3-4 isn't even trying to get a pass rush, he just wants to plug 2 gaps in case of a run. Pouncey can't handle a 4-3 defense set. Yet the "fans" vote him for the pro bowl.

And I've found that trying to educate a "fan" about football, only makes them angry. They are stupid and they love it.
Damn, dude, you sound like an economist. All the fundamentals and theory may work out elegantly in some abstract model, but they're only academic considerations in the real world. Here's a joke for you:

A physicist, a chemist, and an economist are stranded on an island with nothing to eat. A can of soup washes ashore.

The physicist says 'Let's smash the can open with a rock.'

The chemist says 'Let's build a fire and heat the can first.'

The economist says 'Let's assume that we have a can opener.'


Likewise if you calculate every possible variable into the outcome of a football game, you can predict exactly nothing. That's why "stupid" fans rely mostly on common sense, and are still able to enjoy the game. And not just reactively, but with creative participation and with a critical eye. You don't need to have played organized football to appreciate the nuances of strategy and play calling.

But I think you bring some interesting arguments to the discussion, specifically about the role of the different coaches with respect to the players' positions. Of course it's not always as cut-and-dried as many people seem to think.
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:47 PM   #14
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

I posted this in the other thread, but here's the complete interview:

http://goo.gl/NRhPk
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:36 PM   #15
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

Quote:
Originally Posted by former RB View Post
The job of an OC is to design the plays in the playbook and call plays during the game.
The QB makes or breaks the OC.
If the OC calls XY slant, Z curl in, then the QB calls the play in the huddle. That play would be a 3 step drop and throw by the QB. If the QB doesn't throw the ball, the play breaks down. The O-line expects to hold their block for 2 seconds. The recievers run those routes in 2 seconds and look for the ball.
BUT IF THE QB DOESN'T THROW THE BALL, YOU HAVE CHAOS.
The QB has to scramble, the WR's run fire routes, the line looks for someone to block again. However the plays ends, it isn't by design.

The dumb fan sitting on his couch watching the game and drinking beer says "What the hell was that? The line sucks!" Or "What kind of trash play was that? The play calling sucks!" Or "We need better WR's that can get open".

The fact is, you can't judge an OC or his play design or play calling if you don't know how the play was designed or what play was called.

The problem in Pittsburgh is that Ben doesn't pull the trigger. He needs too much time. He grew up making big plays by buying time, so that is a HABIT that he got into.

Fans don't understand football. Thats the problem with forums like this. thats why people who DO understand football, usually don't appear around here.

Running play calling is determined mostly by watching film. What technique does the D lineman usually play. D line trechnique is numbered for coaching purposes. If a D lineman lines up right in front of the O lineman, its one technique, if the D lineman lines up in the gap, its another technique. If the D lineman lines up onb the right shoulder of an O lineman, or the other shoulder, its yet another technique.

The OC watchs film to see how the D line is lining up and noting down and distance.
He picks the running plays he will call during the game, based on what he sees on film, and if it seems to pan out during the game. The problems arise if the RB doesn't get to the hole during the split second it is open. Or if the D line stunts, or if the LB's run blitz. Its a chess game.

The DC on the other team is watching film and looking for blocking weaknesses on the O line of the other team. Some O linemen have trouble if a Dlineman lines up on one of their shoulders.

OC and DC don't coach up players, the position coachs do.

The best OC in the world can't help Kemoeatu handle a D line stunt on his right shoulder if he just can't handle it as a man and a player. The only thing an OC can do is replace Kemoeatu with another player. But that player might have a weakness. Maybe it is strwentgh and he can't handle a bull rush.

The same thing goes for DB's. a WR might take the entire game to set-up a DB to bite on a deep out so he can beat him for a TD on a wheel route. If the game long set up works just a little bit and the Wr gets the DB off his hip and behind him a half step, and the QB makes a great throw, the DB gets beat.

Forums like this are good for fan discussion, but I find it laughable - and sometimes disgusting- to read some of the posts.

I can read a post and tell you with 99% certainty and accuracy whether or not the poster ever played the game or understands anything about the game. I am positive that 90% of the people who post here don't know the grade school fundamantals of the game. But then, thats why people love guys like Pouncey. Most teams play a 3-4. A center gets more than enough help against a 3-4. But when Pouncey has to play a 4-3 and handle 2 gaps, he gets his lunch taken from him. With most teams playing 3-4, centers get guard help from both guards on almost every play. The nose tackle in a 3-4 isn't even trying to get a pass rush, he just wants to plug 2 gaps in case of a run. Pouncey can't handle a 4-3 defense set. Yet the "fans" vote him for the pro bowl.

And I've found that trying to educate a "fan" about football, only makes them angry. They are stupid and they love it.




I didnt read all your post I stopped mid way through... fact his you are right on some points but dead wrong as well... You whole thing with BEN is he doesnt throw on time etc... bottom line is that is true sometimes but BA also designs nothing and sets nothing up.. he never gets matchups .. never a TE on a LB or RB on LB etc..

by the way when you line up on 3 and inches 5 wide then thats not the QBs fault.. That is a bad play call no matter what you say.

I guess you played the game and must have thought you won and lost on just players talent alone.. Your Dead wrong.. Coaching in Football is the difference. You take a guy like Joe Montana put him with someone like Cam Cameron instead of Bill Walsh what do you think you would have????

Dont get me wrong Joe is HOF one of the best ever but if not for Bill Walsh who showed everyone how to run a QB and Off then Joe would have turned out average at best... Maybe Solid.. maybe pro bowl a year or so.. but never would have turned out to be the Joe we know..

A great coach takes talent and makes them HOF... Talent comes along every day if they end up in the wrong place it will be wasted.. I seen it many times. The ones that cant see it are the ones that think they are great and dont have the smarts to see its because someone else showed them how to do it..

You sound like a typical player like I have played with before.. the guy that thinks you are the reason for winning... Great Coaches win with the team

Prime example Denver 10 years ago... any common guy that could run fast could run for 1200 yards in Denver


Maybe even you being the HOF running back we never saw play a down could have been great in DENVER


last point to this post....... If ben came into the league with a shawn Peyton or Joh Grunden he would be the best QB in the league and throwing on time as well has making plays with his feet when needed... BEN is doing what he has to do.,.,. hes playing school yard ball cause no one taught him any better... and the plays getting called are so easy to predict the D coord is eating BA's ass and running his routes.. any local drunk sittin in his chair at home can see that...
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:42 PM   #16
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

Quote:
Originally Posted by former RB View Post
The job of an OC is to design the plays in the playbook and call plays during the game.
The QB makes or breaks the OC.
If the OC calls XY slant, Z curl in, then the QB calls the play in the huddle. That play would be a 3 step drop and throw by the QB. If the QB doesn't throw the ball, the play breaks down. The O-line expects to hold their block for 2 seconds. The recievers run those routes in 2 seconds and look for the ball.
BUT IF THE QB DOESN'T THROW THE BALL, YOU HAVE CHAOS.
The QB has to scramble, the WR's run fire routes, the line looks for someone to block again. However the plays ends, it isn't by design.

The dumb fan sitting on his couch watching the game and drinking beer says "What the hell was that? The line sucks!" Or "What kind of trash play was that? The play calling sucks!" Or "We need better WR's that can get open".

The fact is, you can't judge an OC or his play design or play calling if you don't know how the play was designed or what play was called.

The problem in Pittsburgh is that Ben doesn't pull the trigger. He needs too much time. He grew up making big plays by buying time, so that is a HABIT that he got into.

Fans don't understand football. Thats the problem with forums like this. thats why people who DO understand football, usually don't appear around here.

Running play calling is determined mostly by watching film. What technique does the D lineman usually play. D line trechnique is numbered for coaching purposes. If a D lineman lines up right in front of the O lineman, its one technique, if the D lineman lines up in the gap, its another technique. If the D lineman lines up onb the right shoulder of an O lineman, or the other shoulder, its yet another technique.

The OC watchs film to see how the D line is lining up and noting down and distance.
He picks the running plays he will call during the game, based on what he sees on film, and if it seems to pan out during the game. The problems arise if the RB doesn't get to the hole during the split second it is open. Or if the D line stunts, or if the LB's run blitz. Its a chess game.

The DC on the other team is watching film and looking for blocking weaknesses on the O line of the other team. Some O linemen have trouble if a Dlineman lines up on one of their shoulders.

OC and DC don't coach up players, the position coachs do.

The best OC in the world can't help Kemoeatu handle a D line stunt on his right shoulder if he just can't handle it as a man and a player. The only thing an OC can do is replace Kemoeatu with another player. But that player might have a weakness. Maybe it is strwentgh and he can't handle a bull rush.

The same thing goes for DB's. a WR might take the entire game to set-up a DB to bite on a deep out so he can beat him for a TD on a wheel route. If the game long set up works just a little bit and the Wr gets the DB off his hip and behind him a half step, and the QB makes a great throw, the DB gets beat.

Forums like this are good for fan discussion, but I find it laughable - and sometimes disgusting- to read some of the posts.

I can read a post and tell you with 99% certainty and accuracy whether or not the poster ever played the game or understands anything about the game. I am positive that 90% of the people who post here don't know the grade school fundamantals of the game. But then, thats why people love guys like Pouncey. Most teams play a 3-4. A center gets more than enough help against a 3-4. But when Pouncey has to play a 4-3 and handle 2 gaps, he gets his lunch taken from him. With most teams playing 3-4, centers get guard help from both guards on almost every play. The nose tackle in a 3-4 isn't even trying to get a pass rush, he just wants to plug 2 gaps in case of a run. Pouncey can't handle a 4-3 defense set. Yet the "fans" vote him for the pro bowl.

And I've found that trying to educate a "fan" about football, only makes them angry. They are stupid and they love it.



By the way your comment about Pouncey is laughable as you say.... lol... did you happen to watch the Ravens game last year... they moved Naugta outside after the first half... they been doing it since then... Pouncey was kicking his ass one on one... Pouncey will laugh his way at you to each probowl

also most teams dont play a 3 4... its about half n half...

by the way which little league team did you play for??? you seem to know so much about the game... did you get to play highschool as well
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

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Originally Posted by timmyBean View Post
Damn, dude, you sound like an economist. All the fundamentals and theory may work out elegantly in some abstract model, but they're only academic considerations in the real world. Here's a joke for you:

A physicist, a chemist, and an economist are stranded on an island with nothing to eat. A can of soup washes ashore.

The physicist says 'Let's smash the can open with a rock.'

The chemist says 'Let's build a fire and heat the can first.'

The economist says 'Let's assume that we have a can opener.'


Likewise if you calculate every possible variable into the outcome of a football game, you can predict exactly nothing. That's why "stupid" fans rely mostly on common sense, and are still able to enjoy the game. And not just reactively, but with creative participation and with a critical eye. You don't need to have played organized football to appreciate the nuances of strategy and play calling.

But I think you bring some interesting arguments to the discussion, specifically about the role of the different coaches with respect to the players' positions. Of course it's not always as cut-and-dried as many people seem to think.
thats one hell of a 1st post. i agree. thanks for the joke.
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:59 PM   #18
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

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Originally Posted by Fire Arians View Post
Call the same telegraphed running play 4 times at the goal line? Yeah no wonder why it was stuffed, that's not on arians?

Calling the same WR screen so much during a game that opponents sniff out before the play even starts = not on arians?

Don't tell me roethlisberger is holding the ball on designed 3 step drops, he's doing a 7-step drop almost 90% of the time, 10% of the other times it's a screen, lol. The OC needs to know what his O-line is capable of, and if they can't give him time, isn't that the OC's job to stop calling those plays? or at least you know, set the defense up for it?

Remember the Titans game? the patriots game? watch it again and tell me if Ben's not able to get rid of the ball quick if the gameplan calls for it.

Arians also said after the super bowl defeat last year, that he didn't take advantage of the woodson injury because he doesn't attack players. I think that right there is Arians telling the whole world he's stupid as hell. When the opponent loses their best player in the secondary, common sense might say you test the backup.

Wasn't arians the one who called this play? he should have been fired on the spot.
No! the second time he went empty shotgun on third and two he should have been fired on the spot, and therefore not there to have been that stupid in the Superbowl.
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Old 01-27-2012, 07:21 PM   #19
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

Quote:
Originally Posted by former RB View Post
The job of an OC is to design the plays in the playbook and call plays during the game.
The QB makes or breaks the OC.
If the OC calls XY slant, Z curl in, then the QB calls the play in the huddle. That play would be a 3 step drop and throw by the QB. If the QB doesn't throw the ball, the play breaks down. The O-line expects to hold their block for 2 seconds. The recievers run those routes in 2 seconds and look for the ball.
BUT IF THE QB DOESN'T THROW THE BALL, YOU HAVE CHAOS.
The QB has to scramble, the WR's run fire routes, the line looks for someone to block again. However the plays ends, it isn't by design.

The dumb fan sitting on his couch watching the game and drinking beer says "What the hell was that? The line sucks!" Or "What kind of trash play was that? The play calling sucks!" Or "We need better WR's that can get open".

The fact is, you can't judge an OC or his play design or play calling if you don't know how the play was designed or what play was called.

The problem in Pittsburgh is that Ben doesn't pull the trigger. He needs too much time. He grew up making big plays by buying time, so that is a HABIT that he got into.

Fans don't understand football. Thats the problem with forums like this. thats why people who DO understand football, usually don't appear around here.

Running play calling is determined mostly by watching film. What technique does the D lineman usually play. D line trechnique is numbered for coaching purposes. If a D lineman lines up right in front of the O lineman, its one technique, if the D lineman lines up in the gap, its another technique. If the D lineman lines up onb the right shoulder of an O lineman, or the other shoulder, its yet another technique.

The OC watchs film to see how the D line is lining up and noting down and distance.
He picks the running plays he will call during the game, based on what he sees on film, and if it seems to pan out during the game. The problems arise if the RB doesn't get to the hole during the split second it is open. Or if the D line stunts, or if the LB's run blitz. Its a chess game.

The DC on the other team is watching film and looking for blocking weaknesses on the O line of the other team. Some O linemen have trouble if a Dlineman lines up on one of their shoulders.

OC and DC don't coach up players, the position coachs do.

The best OC in the world can't help Kemoeatu handle a D line stunt on his right shoulder if he just can't handle it as a man and a player. The only thing an OC can do is replace Kemoeatu with another player. But that player might have a weakness. Maybe it is strwentgh and he can't handle a bull rush.

The same thing goes for DB's. a WR might take the entire game to set-up a DB to bite on a deep out so he can beat him for a TD on a wheel route. If the game long set up works just a little bit and the Wr gets the DB off his hip and behind him a half step, and the QB makes a great throw, the DB gets beat.

Forums like this are good for fan discussion, but I find it laughable - and sometimes disgusting- to read some of the posts.

I can read a post and tell you with 99% certainty and accuracy whether or not the poster ever played the game or understands anything about the game. I am positive that 90% of the people who post here don't know the grade school fundamantals of the game. But then, thats why people love guys like Pouncey. Most teams play a 3-4. A center gets more than enough help against a 3-4. But when Pouncey has to play a 4-3 and handle 2 gaps, he gets his lunch taken from him. With most teams playing 3-4, centers get guard help from both guards on almost every play. The nose tackle in a 3-4 isn't even trying to get a pass rush, he just wants to plug 2 gaps in case of a run. Pouncey can't handle a 4-3 defense set. Yet the "fans" vote him for the pro bowl.

And I've found that trying to educate a "fan" about football, only makes them angry. They are stupid and they love it.

Dude, really? get off your high horse man, it makes you look like a snob.


Now back to the topic at hand, Bruce was not a terrible OC that people paint him to be, but the offense needed some change, and getting someone else to call the plays is a big step in the right direction. You are right about Ben's habit though; he wants to go for six every play, almost never checks down, and takes sack when he could have thrown it away or to a check-down receiver. But the playcalling can be sometimes questionable, especially in the redzone.
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Old 01-27-2012, 08:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: Roethlisberger's words not damning

One last thing former RB... in your post you basically say BA is not to blame then you explain what it is BA is suppose to be doing during film.. etc ....... So explain this to me if BA is good at what he does and he is as you say breaking down film and looking for the other teams weakness and charting down and distance.. or let me just quote it you said

"The OC watchs film to see how the D line is lining up and noting down and distance.
He picks the running plays he will call during the game, based on what he sees on film, and if it seems to pan out during the game. The problems arise if the RB doesn't get to the hole during the split second it is open. Or if the D line stunts, or if the LB's run blitz. Its a chess game


So if this is ture and BA is a great O coord and doing all the big bad charting and game planning your say then why do we run a 22 power trap with Kemo pulling every single time we run the football... dont say we dont either.. Its pretty much the only running play we do

Lol you proved my point about BA yourself in your own post.. if nothing else at least admit BA is just calling random plays he does nothing that your talking about. I actullay agree with you man.. I know there are many O coords out there doing exactly what your saying.. Thats football man.. thats great play calling.. thats Jon gruden in the superbowl against his former team running his former Offense... John Lynch said Gruden was sitting in on team D meetings before that superbowl and telling them the exact reads and the exact body language Gannon would use.. Lynch said it was unreal how they picked them apart... Anyway I know there are experts out there doing what your saying.. I watched film breakdown with Shawn Petyon and learned what a real O coord can do...

Bottom line BA isnt doing any of that anyone can see it and if you dont think it then answer me that one question out of all the runs we have in our play book why would 22 power trap with kemo pulling be the one play we call 90 percent of the time against every team...

Face it BA is just not the type of O coord your are saying he is or should be...
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