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Old 08-07-2006, 10:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: Floyd Landis is a cheater

I am still going to hold out judgement until I hear their appeal arguments and hear what experts have to say.

I have heard a few people who know a lot more than I do about biochem that this result doesn't make any sense. Apparently it should take a while to build up testosterone to the ratio he tested at. He hadn't tested for any abnormality in the previous weeks. And most people say that you can't get a short term benefit from testosterone, you would have to have been taking it a while (there are a few people that speculate that isn't the case though, there is just no data about short term use). And I guess in the performance enhancing cheating world, testosterone is considered a very passe drug that no one has used for over 20 years. It sounds like people in the know would compare it to a present day hacker trying to use a Commodore 64 to do his evil deeds.

So it looks like a lot of things don't add up. I don't have enough knowledge to know if those arguments are outright spin or not. I have read that the test in question is a notorious as being unreliable and the results require subjective interpretation(but apparently his results were really high). People have appealed postive results from this test and wonI also leave open the possibility that someone could have tainted his results, especially after the L'Equipe scandal a year or so ago when they tried to pin a positive doping result on Armstrong by illegally and incorrectly analyzing a 7 year old B sample.

Anyway, the jury is still out on Floyd in my mind. Either way, I hope the evidence is very objective so we aren't left wondering if he really did it or not when all is said and done.
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:27 PM   #22
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Default Re: Floyd Landis is a cheater

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk Believer
People have appealed postive results from this test and wonI also leave open the possibility that someone could have tainted his results, especially after the L'Equipe scandal a year or so ago when they tried to pin a positive doping result on Armstrong by illegally and incorrectly analyzing a 7 year old B sample.

Anyway, the jury is still out on Floyd in my mind. Either way, I hope the evidence is very objective so we aren't left wondering if he really did it or not when all is said and done.
This lab is unreliable in my mind, but with the way cycling is going I'm really not suprised by a new doping charge. It's hard for me to decide if this is another case of an athlete denying charges when the guilt is obvious, or if Landis is getting the shaft from a French agenda. Things aren't looking good for Floyd either way though, since his rep is pretty much ruined. I will wait until the appeals are done and go with that decision (if it is reasonable). It is all very disappointing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk Believer
It sounds like people in the know would compare it to a present hacker trying to use a Commodore 64 to do his evil deeds.
Damn, no wonder it takes so long to post to the board...
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Old 08-07-2006, 01:39 PM   #23
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Default Re: Floyd Landis is a cheater

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk Believer
I am still going to hold out judgement until I hear their appeal arguments and hear what experts have to say.

I have heard a few people who know a lot more than I do about biochem that this result doesn't make any sense. Apparently it should take a while to build up testosterone to the ratio he tested at. He hadn't tested for any abnormality in the previous weeks. And most people say that you can't get a short term benefit from testosterone, you would have to have been taking it a while (there are a few people that speculate that isn't the case though, there is just no data about short term use). And I guess in the performance enhancing cheating world, testosterone is considered a very passe drug that no one has used for over 20 years. It sounds like people in the know would compare it to a present day hacker trying to use a Commodore 64 to do his evil deeds.

So it looks like a lot of things don't add up. I don't have enough knowledge to know if those arguments are outright spin or not. I have read that the test in question is a notorious as being unreliable and the results require subjective interpretation(but apparently his results were really high). People have appealed postive results from this test and wonI also leave open the possibility that someone could have tainted his results, especially after the L'Equipe scandal a year or so ago when they tried to pin a positive doping result on Armstrong by illegally and incorrectly analyzing a 7 year old B sample.

Anyway, the jury is still out on Floyd in my mind. Either way, I hope the evidence is very objective so we aren't left wondering if he really did it or not when all is said and done.
Some excellent points, Hawk. Landis was on The Today Show this morning for a short segment w/his wife and insists he wasn't doping. I wouldn't put anything past the French either, but who knows. Lies always come out eventually by those who are deceitful, so I'm sure everything will all add up sooner or later.
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Old 08-07-2006, 01:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: Floyd Landis is a cheater

I guess the saddest part of the whole story is that it wouldn't be a big surprise if he was doping. We've almost come to expect it here in the US. Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Justin Gatlin, Marion Jones, etc have shown that Americans are not above cheating to make themselves better. And they don't need it to win. Gatlin was one of the fastest men in the world, but that wasn't enough. Barry Bonds was one of the greatest baseball players the world has ever known, but that wasn't enough. So maybe all these athletes can answer one simple question for me.

When is it enough?
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Floyd Landis is a cheater

Agreed. I believe that one of the biggest tragedies of modern sport is the fact that any person who does anything extraordinary in the field of athletics will always be dogged by the accusation of cheating. Achievments that used to inspire all of us to do more with our lives may now merely inspire cynicism. Especially in people who were rooting against the winner. And as Lance Armstrong's case demonstrates, even though people may not be able to prove you did cheat, you can't ever truly prove that you didn't.
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: Floyd Landis is a cheater

Exactly, Hawk, and not being able to prove that you didn't cheat in those instances is what can ruin an athlete's reputation and/or career.
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Old 11-16-2006, 08:50 AM   #27
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Default Re: Landis Notified of Positive Doping Test

Report: Lab in Landis case made 'administrative error' on 'B' sample
Associated Press
Cycling News Wire

PARIS -- The French anti-doping lab that tested American
cyclist Floyd Landis' urine samples made an "administrative
error" when reporting its findings on his backup "B" sample, the
French newspaper Le Monde reported Wednesday.

The newspaper cited unnamed sources as saying the
Chatenay-Malabry laboratory gave the wrong number in its report
about Landis' second sample. Tests on the rider's two samples
indicated that Landis had elevated levels of testosterone in his
system when he won the Tour de France in July.

In its report, the lab wrote that the "B" sample tested was
number 994,474, while the actual number was 995,474, Le Monde said.

"The error, of an administrative nature, does not mean the
positive B sample was not that of the American," Le Monde said.
"But it is being used today by his lawyers ... to contest his
positive doping results."

The lab referred questions to the French anti-doping agency,
when contacted Wednesday by The Associated Press. Its secretary
general, Philippe Dautry, said the agency had no official comment
and that it was not for him to say whether an error had occurred
with the sample's number. He said the agency would respond when
Landis' case is heard.

Landis' attorney, Howard Jacobs, has already alleged that the
French lab made repeated errors in its analyses, including
mismatched sample code numbers.

In a letter sent to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in September,
Jacobs said the positive finding on the "B" sample came from a
sample number not assigned to Landis.

"It's incredibly sloppy," Jacobs said at the time. "It has to
make you wonder about the accuracy of the work."

On Sunday, Landis said in a French television interview that the
lab made crucial errors in his tests.

"Even the best people make mistakes," he said. "I can't say
that the lab is always a bad lab, but I can say that in this case
it made some mistakes ... I did not take testosterone."

Le Monde's report came a day after French authorities said they
are investigating a complaint that hackers stole data from
computers at the same lab in an attempt to discredit the lab's
credibility.

Tour de France organizers no longer consider Landis the Tour
champion. He will contest the test results at an arbitration
hearing in the United States. If found guilty of doping, he would
be formally stripped of the title and face a two-year ban.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?...ing&id=2662735
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:38 AM   #28
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Default Re: Landis Notified of Positive Doping Test

Interesting update. It seemed there were a lot of things that didn't add up in this case. Should be interesting to see if this is enough to overturn the results. Hard to tell if this is evidence there was tampering or of the sample was mislabeled accidently. I think by a US legal system standard, this would be enough to overturn the case. But I don't know how the cycling appeal process works.
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Old 09-20-2007, 01:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Landis Notified of Positive Doping Test

Landis banned two years for doping, must forfeit Tour title

Quote:
PARIS -- Floyd Landis lost his expensive and explosive doping case Thursday when the arbitrators upheld the results of a test that showed the 2006 Tour de France champion used synthetic testosterone to fuel his spectacular comeback victory, The Associated Press has learned.

The decision means Landis, who repeatedly has denied using performance-enhancing drugs, must forfeit his Tour de France title and is subject to a two-year ban.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cyclin...ory?id=3029089
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:00 PM   #30
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Default Re: Landis Notified of Positive Doping Test

Wow. This is an old thread. There have been several articles about the Tour lately, and it's pretty much accepted now that just about every cyclist is doping or juicing or transfusing blood (Their own or others). Sponsors are pulling out left and right. This sport is probably on it's last legs.
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