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Old 12-18-2012, 09:26 AM   #181
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Default Re: #1 Defense By Smoke & Mirrors

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Originally Posted by FanSince72 View Post
And once again I will point out:
  • 5 winning seasons under Arians
  • Four of those seasons were double-digit wins
  • Three of those seasons were 12 wins
  • We went to 2 Super Bowls
  • We won 1 Super Bowl

And now Arians is 9-5 with a new team, serving as both the OC and as the Head Coach and has a roster of young players and a rookie QB.

No coach who "sucks" racks up a resume like that.
Sorry, I just disagree. I believe you are giving any OC/HC way too much credit for a team/organization's accomplishments. The team that won the Super Bowl, averaged 26/pts a game during the playoffs and SB performance. That isn't counting Holmes punt return and Harrison's Int Return. That's 23.6 pts per game - hardly impressive. Good thing we went up against the lowly Chargers, Ravens with Rookie QB (oh yea, include Troy's pick 6 - average down to 21.6 pts/game), and one of the greatest plays in SB history, combined with Ben's late game improv to Holmes.

Struggling to score 3 TDs. IMO Arians contributions towards the SB run were minimal in comparison to one of the best defenses of all time, and the improv talent on offense.

We only tied the Chargers with a Holmes punt return. The Steelers only points in the first quarter

In the Ravens game, we only scored two field goals in the first quarter. Sounds like a trend of not being able to sustain drives to me

We only scored a field goal in the 1st, and 3rd quarter of SB XLIII. And needed late heroics (1 TD) to win the game in the 4th.

Ben's post XLIII interview (paraphrasing) "I scrambled left, scrambled right, looked for Holmes in the end zone and threw it up"
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:59 AM   #182
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Default Re: #1 Defense By Smoke & Mirrors

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Sorry, I just disagree. I believe you are giving any OC/HC way too much credit for a team/organization's accomplishments. The team that won the Super Bowl, averaged 26/pts a game during the playoffs and SB performance. That isn't counting Holmes punt return and Harrison's Int Return. That's 23.6 pts per game - hardly impressive. Good thing we went up against the lowly Chargers, Ravens with Rookie QB (oh yea, include Troy's pick 6 - average down to 21.6 pts/game), and one of the greatest plays in SB history, combined with Ben's late game improv to Holmes.

Struggling to score 3 TDs. IMO Arians contributions towards the SB run were minimal in comparison to one of the best defenses of all time, and the improv talent on offense.

We only tied the Chargers with a Holmes punt return. The Steelers only points in the first quarter

In the Ravens game, we only scored two field goals in the first quarter. Sounds like a trend of not being able to sustain drives to me

We only scored a field goal in the 1st, and 3rd quarter of SB XLIII. And needed late heroics (1 TD) to win the game in the 4th.

Ben's post XLIII interview (paraphrasing) "I scrambled left, scrambled right, looked for Holmes in the end zone and threw it up"
That may all be true, but has Haley proven he's any better?

Look at it this way, the Steelers were 8-8 and a non-playoff team in 2006. When Arians took over in 2007 the Steelers went 10-6 and won the division. Fast forward to 2012. Haley comes in a year after a 12-4 season. Did the offense underachieve in that season? Yes they did. Let me repeat for the knee-jerking yinzers, yes they underachieved. But nonetheless the team was 12-4. Now they can't finish any better than 9-7.

Now lets go over what this offense was supposed to achieve:

1.) Keep Ben upright - FAIL
2.) Reestablish running game - FAIL
3.) Score more points per game - FAIL

Arians is no future HOFer, but how has Haley's offense proven to be any better than last year's underachieving offense?
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:49 PM   #183
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Default Re: #1 Defense By Smoke & Mirrors

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That may all be true, but has Haley proven he's any better?

Look at it this way, the Steelers were 8-8 and a non-playoff team in 2006. When Arians took over in 2007 the Steelers went 10-6 and won the division. Fast forward to 2012. Haley comes in a year after a 12-4 season. Did the offense underachieve in that season? Yes they did. Let me repeat for the knee-jerking yinzers, yes they underachieved. But nonetheless the team was 12-4. Now they can't finish any better than 9-7.

Now lets go over what this offense was supposed to achieve:

1.) Keep Ben upright - FAIL
2.) Reestablish running game - FAIL
3.) Score more points per game - FAIL

Arians is no future HOFer, but how has Haley's offense proven to be any better than last year's underachieving offense?
Why I think Haley's offense is better. This article came out the morning before the win against KC, and Ben's injury. I'd argue Ben's injury (still think he isn't right), as well as the injuries on the line, among other injuries, as well as the RBs and WRs fumbling - is what is masking Haley's offense - not the philosophy and calls. I indicated with bold some important points/stats and where this offense was heading before being decimated and getting the dropsies. Keep in mind that this is the offense that supposedly wasn't playing to anyone's strengths.
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...as-mvp-661606/

Steelers make pitch for Roethlisberger as MVP
November 11, 2012 12:32 am
By Ed Bouchette / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


Byron Leftwich watched ESPN's "SportsCenter" the other day, and they listed their top five candidates for NFL Most Valuable Player. • Ben Roethlisberger was not among them. "He should be a candidate," said Leftwich, who backs him up at quarterback for the Steelers in more ways than one. "The fact he was not listed is ridiculous. He's one of the elite; '7' can play the game of football, and he's playing at a very high level."

What many believed might be a difficult transition season for Roethlisberger under a new coordinator and a new offense instead has been among his best. His 2,203 passing yards are on pace to break his own team record. His 16 touchdowns are on pace to tie his team record. His four interceptions are on pace to be his fewest other than the five he threw in 2010, when he missed four games and had just 17 touchdown passes.

His passer rating of 101.1 would be the second-highest of his career.

Most importantly, his play has been steadily spectacular while other areas of the team struggled mightily early in the season with the lack of a ground game, an offensive line not yet cohesive and a defense that gave up too many fourth-quarter leads.
Roethlisberger has led game-winning fourth-quarter drives three times, bringing his total (including overtime and the postseason) to 30.

"He's a big reason why we've been in games and why we feel we can win any game," defensive end Brett Keisel said. "That's why we feel we can go to the Super Bowl every year, because we have a championship-type quarterback."

All kinds of dire predictions were made when the Steelers fired Bruce Arians and hired Todd Haley as his replacement at coordinator. Haley came with a reputation that he could be confrontational with his students. Roethlisberger, who considers Arians a friend, was naturally skeptical.

But he bought into the new offense with its high-percentage passes and short check-downs to halfbacks, the lack of deep throws and an increased importance in the ground game. He's thrived and survived in it, his sacks cut way down at 17.

"He's a big-time leader, a big-time competitor, a fourth-quarter killer," Mike Wallace said. "He's the toughest quarterback in the league. ... He picked up the new offense really fast. I feel it's time he gets the recognition he deserves."

Roethlisberger made his second Pro Bowl last season (he turned down a chance for a third after the 2009 season). He's ninth in MVP odds, according to Bovada (www.bovada.lv) at 20-1. Peyton Manning is the favorite at 2-1 followed by Matt Ryan (3-1), Tom Brady (6-1), Aaron Rodgers (7-1), Eli Manning (12-1), Arian Foster and Drew Brees (both 15-1) and J.J. Watt (18-1).
His teammates aren't buying it.

You see how valuable he is to our team, the plays he's able to make at 6-5, 245 pounds," Leftwich said. "Nobody else makes those type of plays. Nobody else his size is capable to do what he can do -- throw people off him all the time and make a play. Big guys can do that but then they can't move around enough to throw the ball 35 yards down the field to Emmanuel Sanders.

"He's a very unique football player, and I think sometimes by him being unique and the style he plays, he doesn't get enough credit for all the things he does right. He doesn't play the way people perceive the quarterback position to play.

"The great thing about him is he's never changed his game. He can't play someone else's game. If that comes out to winning two Super Bowls and be in three, you'd think people would look at that: Is he getting the job done or not? No one can say he's not. He's won 70 percent of his games."

And this year, he has elevated his own game in subtle ways -- the ways Haley has asked of him. He is also, again, among the most clutch players in the game. He leads all quarterbacks with a passer rating of 121.2 on third down. Tom Brady is next at 110.2.

"Sometimes he doesn't get mentioned with the elite quarterbacks for one reason or another," Keisel said. "We in this locker room consider him the best."

Reflected glory only goes so far
Scott Pioli won all kinds of honors when he was the personnel man for Bill Belichick in New England. Kansas City hired him as general manager to turn the team around, and he has done that by turning the franchise into a mess.

Pioli is another shooting star who gained his reputation working for Belichick and then failed on his own. Others include his current coach, Romeo Crennel, on his second failed job after the one he held with the Cleveland Browns; Charlie Weis at Notre Dame; and Josh McDaniels with the Denver Broncos. The most promising from the Belichick/Patriots tree is Bill O'Brien, who is off to a good start under difficult conditions at Penn State.

Things have gotten so bad in Kansas City just two years after the Chiefs were AFC West Division champs -- coached by Haley, who Pioli then fired during the following season -- that fans are booing their own team and may stop showing up for games, which is unheard of for one of the most loyal fan bases in the NFL.

A bad move rising?
If Jonathan Dwyer and/or Isaac Redman continue to pound out 100-yard games and the Steelers return to Rashard Mendenhall when he's healthy, it will rank among the more controversial decisions in a while at a skilled offensive position.

It will be reminiscent of that brilliant decision the coaching staff made in 2003 when it picked Amos Zereoue in training camp to bump Jerome Bettis out of his starting job. Or another in 2000 when Hines Ward was temporarily bumped from his starting job so they could install their two first-round picks, Troy Edwards and rookie Plaxico Burress, as the starting wide receivers.

Another one worth recalling came in 1992. With Neil O'Donnell nursing an injury toward the end of that season, Bubby Brister, pictured inset, guided the Steelers to a 4-2 record down the stretch. The Steelers earned a playoff seed and had a week off before the Buffalo Bills came to town. Bill Cowher decided to return to O'Donnell at quarterback and he obviously was either rusty or not ready and in Three Rivers Stadium the Bills drubbed the Steelers, 24-3, in Cowher's first playoff game.

It would be Brister's last game with the Steelers, and he went out the door saying about O'Donnell, "I can out-throw him, and outrun him."
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:03 PM   #184
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Default Re: #1 Defense By Smoke & Mirrors

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Why I think Haley's offense is better. This article came out the morning before the win against KC, and Ben's injury. I'd argue Ben's injury (still think he isn't right), as well as the injuries on the line, among other injuries, as well as the RBs and WRs fumbling - is what is masking Haley's offense - not the philosophy and calls. I indicated with bold some important points/stats and where this offense was heading before being decimated and getting the dropsies. Keep in mind that this is the offense that supposedly wasn't playing to anyone's strengths.
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...as-mvp-661606/
Arians had to deal with injuries to the o-line during his tenure, and it still wasn't an excuse. Why should Haley be allowed to use that as an excuse? The offense was supposed to keep Ben healthy, it failed. No excuses. Reestablish a running game? It did that for three games, count 'em, three games. Maybe it was too early to proclaim the Steelers running game was back. Where are the points at? This offense doesn't score points because it's too damn worried about possession.

Face it, this offense is no better than last year's.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:21 PM   #185
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Arians had to deal with injuries to the o-line during his tenure, and it still wasn't an excuse. Why should Haley be allowed to use that as an excuse? The offense was supposed to keep Ben healthy, it failed. No excuses. Reestablish a running game? It did that for three games, count 'em, three games. Maybe it was too early to proclaim the Steelers running game was back. Where are the points at? This offense doesn't score points because it's too damn worried about possession.

Face it, this offense is no better than last year's.
The injuries aren't an excuse. They are a reality. Bruce had to deal with injuries too, yes - but what did that have to do with 3rd and 1 and throwing it into a windstorm? What did it have to do with Green Bay's defense in XLV commenting on knowing exactly what we were going to do? Clay Matthews sure as hell knew David Johnson was coming to block for Mendy, and he blew right past him, blowing up the play. Mr. 3rd and 1 empty set or Mr. 3rd and 1, here comes the pull from David Johnson - gee, I wonder what the Steelers are going to do? Stale and predictable and did nothing to improve Ben. The offense regressed from 2009-to the time of his firing. I'd say the running game was doing just fine considering they actually practiced it, unlike Mr. Arians, who Max Starks even said didn't practice the run enough for it to be effective. Yea, our feature RB was injured too - so I'd say that's pretty damn good during a 3 game winning streak. The guy got shit-canned for a reason.

You Arians apologists keep on comparing 5 seasons to not even 1 complete season- very convenient. I'll ask you Arians apologists again - who do you want instead? Who would do it better? Cause Bruce Arians isn't walking through the door. Neither is Bill Cowher. Why don't you come up with one fact saying showing our offense would be better off with Arians over Haley? You can't. Typical yinzer knee-jerk reaction ? I'd say Pittsburgh does a pretty good job of not accepting the new guy and wanting the old one back when things aren't going well. Change is scary - but it had to happen for the greater good.

How you even compare the Indy situation to our own is mind boggling.

And oh yea, the defense looks like smoke and mirrors. Anyone want to fight me that the secondary getting lit up had nothing to do with off-the-street guys lining up for us? Pretty funny that Taylor goes out, and Chargers and Cowboys put up points. It isn't an excuse - it's reality. You can't keep hoping and praying that things will get better as more and more guys are having to aid the scrubs and drop into coverage. It is no fucking surprise that there was zero pressure.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:36 PM   #186
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The injuries aren't an excuse. They are a reality. Bruce had to deal with injuries too, yes - but what did that have to do with 3rd and 1 and throwing it into a windstorm? What did it have to do with Green Bay's defense in XLV commenting on knowing exactly what we were going to do? Clay Matthews sure as hell knew David Johnson was coming to block for Mendy, and he blew right past him, blowing up the play. Mr. 3rd and 1 empty set or Mr. 3rd and 1, here comes the pull from David Johnson - gee, I wonder what the Steelers are going to do? Stale and predictable and did nothing to improve Ben. The offense regressed from 2009-to the time of his firing. I'd say the running game was doing just fine considering they actually practiced it, unlike Mr. Arians, who Max Starks even said didn't practice the run enough for it to be effective. Yea, our feature RB was injured too - so I'd say that's pretty damn good during a 3 game winning streak. The guy got shit-canned for a reason.

You Arians apologists keep on comparing 5 seasons to not even 1 complete season- very convenient. I'll ask you Arians apologists again - who do you want instead? Who would do it better? Cause Bruce Arians isn't walking through the door. Neither is Bill Cowher. Why don't you come up with one fact saying showing our offense would be better off with Arians over Haley? You can't. Typical yinzer knee-jerk reaction ? I'd say Pittsburgh does a pretty good job of not accepting the new guy and wanting the old one back when things aren't going well. Change is scary - but it had to happen for the greater good.

How you even compare the Indy situation to our own is mind boggling.

And oh yea, the defense looks like smoke and mirrors. Anyone want to fight me that the secondary getting lit up had nothing to do with off-the-street guys lining up for us? Pretty funny that Taylor goes out, and Chargers and Cowboys put up points. It isn't an excuse - it's reality. You can't keep hoping and praying that things will get better as more and more guys are having to aid the scrubs and drop into coverage. It is no fucking surprise that there was zero pressure.
7-7 doesn't lie. Arians went 10-6 in his first. Now Arians certainly had his faults, notably red zones, but the records don't lie.

7-7.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:37 PM   #187
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7-7 doesn't lie. Arians went 10-6 in his first. Now Arians certainly had his faults, notably red zones, but the records don't lie.

7-7.
So let me just understand this The record is a direct connection to the capabilities of the OC and the play calling, and that alone?
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:39 PM   #188
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So let me just understand this The record is a direct connection to the capabilities of the OC and the play calling, and that alone?
It shows no improvement that's for damn sure.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:45 PM   #189
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It shows no improvement that's for damn sure.
Gotcha.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:48 PM   #190
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Gotcha.
I also find it funny that Haley does some of the same things Arians did that drove all of yinzer nation nuts, but he gets a pass.
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