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Old 12-13-2012, 12:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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Originally Posted by 6RingsAndCounting View Post
We have 2 mediocre backs, Redman is a backup running back, a solid one, but he shouldn't be a starter.
Can you explain why you think this given the numbers? I am just curious as to where this perception comes from around the league and such. The guy has proven himself a very capable starter including in the playoffs where it truly counts.

You mention Mendenhall and yet last year Mendenhall (in 15 starts) had 2 100 yard games and Redman matched that total with only 2 chances.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:45 PM   #12
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
Yes, from bad to worse. He choked (fumbled) in big games and continued to have the same problems this year when he came back off of injury. And if those were going to be career statistics that is pretty sad. In 15 games he had 2 (yes, only 2) games of 100 + yards. For a first round "franchise" back that is awful. Compare that to Redman last year who had 1 or 2 counted starts with both being 90 or 100+ games.
From reading your entire post, I can see you love quoting statistics. That's fine, statistics are fine to help an argument. Unfortunately, they can also work against your argument as they do here. Redman has 98 carries for 350 yards this year. While these numbers taken at face value are decent, let's dig a little deeper here.

Redman had 26 carries for 147 yards against the Giants.Those are respectable numbers, no doubt. However, let's take into account the rest of the season, both before and after the Giants game.

If you take away the anomaly that is the Giants game this season for Redman, he has 72 carries for 203 yards. That equates to 2.7 YPC - that doesn't scream underrated back and even using the term 'good' here is a stretch. These are undrafted free agent running back numbers and, well, Ike went undrafted.

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The only thing he has on either Dwyer or Redman is speed. He is scared to get hit and for all of that speed he has little in the way of agility or making people miss. He also isn't a great blocker.
In this new NFL, having the speed and agility to bounce it outside as Mendenhall does is absolutely required. While he's not a great blocker, he's an exceptional 'chip-and-out-route' running back which gives Ben a checkdown option in the flat.


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You are right about Dwyer but wrong about Redman. See the OP for why you are wrong about Redman. Every game he has had a significant amount of carries he has gone for 100 or close enough to count it. Including a playoff game.
He hadn't been given significant carries in those other games because he wasn't doing anything with the carries he had, so a change had to be made. For a running back to be successful, he can't have one 20+ yard gainer and a couple 10 yard gains here and there, he has to be consistently picking up 4 - 5 yards. Having a couple of big gains here and there isn't good enough, but it sure does inflate statistics. Objectively look at Redman run and tell me he's a "good" running back - you can't.


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Dwyer has more he needs to show in my opinion but I think you are not giving enough credit to Redman. When given his chance he has had all 100 yard games. Some of the best short yardage effeciency in football and is a great blocker and can catch out of the backfield. What more do you need to be considered at least good?
This again ties to my original point. Go look at those games again. He was averaging around 3.24 ypc for most of the game, but a 20 yard gain coupled with a 10 yard gain back-to-back inflate these statistics. The problem is he isn't efficient or consistent at all. He's a one-dimensional runner that can't do anything but run forward and fall down. When they decide to load the box, it's game over for Redman.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
1. You listed 3 of the best RB's in the NFL. I am not arguing Redman is a top 5 RB. He is still a good/great (potentially) RB given what he has done with limited oppurtunity.

2. Of the 3 you listed, you only really have a legit argument with Peterson. McCoy and Forte haven't done anything this season:

McCoy has a 4.2 yard average and a long of 34 with 2 TD's (7 plays of 20+)
Forte has a 4.3 yard average and a long of 46 with 3 TD's (4 plays of 20+)
Redman has a 3.6 yard average with a long of 28 and 2 TD's (2 plays of 20+)

Keep in mind Redman is under 100 attempts while the other 2 are pushing 200 each. Do you see a major disparity between these numbers?
LeSean McCoy hasn't done anything this year? 750 yards on 177 carries are very good numbers. Forte has put up very similar numbers in terms of production. 834 yards on 192 carries are very, very good. Also, you killed your own argument by quoting the "big play" stats. Forte only has two more runs of 20+, but has a significantly higher YPC average and more yardage. This means that Forte has been consistent in picking up 4 - 5 yards every time he gets the ball, not a couple big plays here and there. While it might be unfair to compare Redman to these guys, I'm asking for greatness at the position - something we should expect. Right now, we're settling for mediocrity which is unacceptable.


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This is a fair argument but keep in mind it is no different than what we had with Jerome Bettis and he worked out just fine for us. Again, I think you need to look to our line and the way the coaches have rotated the backs instead of making 1 a legit starter.
No. No. No. We don't want or need another Jerome Bettis. This isn't the 90's - playing "smash mouth football" doesn't work anymore. Instead of looking for the next overweight and out-of-shape glorified fullback to be our running back, let's look for the next Adrian Peterson or Arian Foster. This isn't on the coaches, it's the fact that our running backs can only do one thing - run in a straight line with their heads down. They're Mike Wallace, but at running back.


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We have more important needs than RB. Ben will need a replacement soon and there is nothing wrong with getting someone now for him to help mold. Troy and Clark are both getting up there in age and could use some replacements. Mundy sucks and Allen is starting to look better but we need to see more from him.
Ben is fine. We'll get another 4 or 5 years out of Roethlisberger and finding a replacement in this draft class is a mistake. I'm not asking we use a first or second round pick on a running back, but I am asking we use a 5th to grab someone like Gillislee or Davis - guys that are small but quick and speedy.

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Our RB's are just fine so long as our line blocks and the coaches get their heads out of their asses. I don't blame our line too much because they are fighting through constant injury and changes.
They're really, really not fine. The OLine has been playing poorly, absolutely. However, that being said, good or "potentially great" running backs don't need elite lines to be efficient, which brings me to my next point.

You're sitting there and telling me that the Bears and Eagles lines have been effective so far at run blocking. Is this a joke? This is where "stats" lie. Go and watch any Eagles or Bears game and tell me those stats are true. I'm not kidding here - go and look at any single one of their games so far and tell me those stats have any shred of truth to them. They're that high because the running backs behind them are making them look very, very good. These are the same lines that got Vick and Cutler fairly serious concussions, and in Vick's case, very serious concussions.

McCoy and Forte are making those lines seem very, very good in run blocking. In reality, if they had someone like Dwyer or Redman, they'd be hovering around 25 - 30 like we are. The simple fact of the matter is, they're good enough to make bad lines seem very good because they are truly great running backs. Dwyer and Redman, however, aren't good enough to put these kinds of stats up and they never will. They simply aren't good enough and don't have the ceiling that those other guys do, and it's time to stop settling for mediocrity and draft a new running back.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
Can you explain why you think this given the numbers? I am just curious as to where this perception comes from around the league and such. The guy has proven himself a very capable starter including in the playoffs where it truly counts.

You mention Mendenhall and yet last year Mendenhall (in 15 starts) had 2 100 yard games and Redman matched that total with only 2 chances.
Actually, Redman only had one 100 yard game last season, and it was the playoff game. His other game that he started was against the Titans and he had 49 yards (Dwyer was the one with 100). This year he had the great game against the Giants. Other than that though, I don't think he can handle a full season workload. He's great when he's called upon, but he should be called upon in a back up role. When they handed him the keys early in the year, it wasn't pretty. 20 yards against Denver, 25 against the Jets, and 27 against Oakland. Dwyer outperformed him in all of those games.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

Even mentioning AP with Dwyer or Redman is just wrong. I love the steelers, but they do not have a good rb right now, sorry.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

the RB sitch isn't getting fixed this season. plain and simple.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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Originally Posted by SteelersCanada View Post
If you take away the anomaly that is the Giants game this season for Redman, he has 72 carries for 203 yards. That equates to 2.7 YPC - that doesn't scream underrated back and even using the term 'good' here is a stretch.
Yes, but that is ignoring the fact we have one of the worst run blocking lines in the league and a dumb rotation at back that lets nobody get a rythm. Those are both pretty significant.

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In this new NFL, having the speed and agility to bounce it outside as Mendenhall does is absolutely required.
I guess Bettis ran a 4.2 40 huh?

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While he's not a great blocker, he's an exceptional 'chip-and-out-route' running back which gives Ben a checkdown option in the flat.
On the other hand you have Redman who is a great blocker and gives Ben the same option in the flats.

Quote:
He hadn't been given significant carries in those other games because he wasn't doing anything with the carries he had, so a change had to be made.
Again, you are ignoring significant factors. None of our running backs did anything in those games because our line was playing awful and nobody got the consistent carries.

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He was averaging around 3.24 ypc for most of the game, but a 20 yard gain coupled with a 10 yard gain back-to-back inflate these statistics. The problem is he isn't efficient or consistent at all.
A run is a run is a run. And he has been consistent when he has been given the consistent amount of carries. Just look at the numbers I provided. The 3 games he has been the absolute starter with the full load he has had 100 yard games or close. Or something like that. There are 2 games I need to clear something up on.

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He's a one-dimensional runner that can't do anything but run forward and fall down. When they decide to load the box, it's game over for Redman.
Not really different than any back in the league but okay.

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While it might be unfair to compare Redman to these guys, I'm asking for greatness at the position - something we should expect. Right now, we're settling for mediocrity which is unacceptable.
It is only unfair if you continue to ignore the numbers I provided. Those guys have more yards and a couple more big plays but they also have 50-100 more carries. Not to mention lines rated a lot higher in run blocking than the Steelers.

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No. No. No. We don't want or need another Jerome Bettis. This isn't the 90's - playing "smash mouth football" doesn't work anymore.
Actually it does. Time of Possession is a very important part of the game and having runnings that can tire a defense and run out the clock is a big deal. If speed were that significant Mendenhall wouldn't be such a shitty back.

I don't neccessarily want Bettis 2.0 but Bettis 2.0 would work just fine if used right.

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This isn't on the coaches, it's the fact that our running backs can only do one thing - run in a straight line with their heads down.
Not just the coaches. The line AND the coaches.

The line we know is shitty. Through the numbers and just a general eye test. The coaches have multiple issues:

1. You can't keep rotating backs in and out. That gives them no chance to find a rythm or get hot. Sure, you can have a back give one a rest once in awhile but they were switching them series by series or quarter by quarter. And I hate to keep harping on numbers but they support the argument. The 3 games in the middle of the year where we had 3 100 yard games were games where the other backs were injured so there was no question as to who was getting the ball.

2. They kill the running backs confidence with this fumble thing. Early in the year they benched Dwyer for a mistake and called him out in front of the team. 1 mistake. Most players don't get that treatment. Move forward to the Browns game where Batch needs some help and consistency and Tomlin benches 3 RB's. Yes, they fumbled but that just kills confidence in the player and the team when shit like that is happening.

Look man. You are making solid points but they don't account for so many relevant things that change the way we should be looking at this.

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but I am asking we use a 5th to grab someone like Gillislee or Davis - guys that are small but quick and speedy.
We already have Rainey for that. That would be a wasted pick.

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However, that being said, good or "potentially great" running backs don't need elite lines to be efficient, which brings me to my next point.
Nobody said elite lines. But we need better than graded 30th in the league in run blocking.

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You're sitting there and telling me that the Bears and Eagles lines have been effective so far at run blocking. Is this a joke?
Not as effective as some but more effective than the Steelers, which was your original argument.

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They're that high because the running backs behind them are making them look very, very good.
These statistics are not based on performance of the running back so you are wrong on that. These are the same numbers a lot of NFL teams use to judge there teams. Which looks at game film, weighted averages, each linemens individual performance as well as considering double teams and things like that. You can't find more accurate or telling statistics.

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Originally Posted by 6RingsAndCounting View Post
Actually, Redman only had one 100 yard game last season, and it was the playoff game. His other game that he started was against the Titans and he had 49 yards (Dwyer was the one with 100).
It was the game he replaced Mendenhall where he ran for 90+ (that is the other game I was calling 100 give or take....I think I pointed out that it wasn't quite 100 but I say it because it is close enough without needing to type so much).

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When they handed him the keys early in the year, it wasn't pretty. 20 yards against Denver, 25 against the Jets, and 27 against Oakland. Dwyer outperformed him in all of those games.
Again, you can't call it handing him the keys when he was basically splitting the carries. And you also can't ignore the fact that our line was awful and none of our backs ran well.

The argument I am making is that when we truly handed Redman the keys, he has had nothing but success and good success at that (barring the Titans game you mentioned).

And as far as who performed better between Redman and Dwyer.....They are 2 and 2 so to speak. In games where they kind of split the load Dwyer ran better twice and Redman ran better twice.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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Yes, but that is ignoring the fact we have one of the worst run blocking lines in the league and a dumb rotation at back that lets nobody get a rythm. Those are both pretty significant.
So why doesn't that same rationale apply to Mendenhall as well?



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I guess Bettis ran a 4.2 40 huh?
Bettis had an elite offensive line blocking for him a majority of the time he spent with the Steelers, allowing him to just pound it up the gut every play. He was not known for being able to bounce runs to the outside if the middle gets clogged up.



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On the other hand you have Redman who is a great blocker and gives Ben the same option in the flats.
But has yet to prove he can carry the load of a full season without the wheels coming off. As another poster already pointed out-- he had one or two good games, but has disappeared otherwise.

Sure he was injured-- but that is why he is not a starting RB.

Neither he nor Dwyer have proven they are the man for 300+ carries per year. Mendenhall already has-- he has brought us multiple 1000+ yard seasons in bonehead's offensive scheme, and was looking to be improving until he got hurt.

Dwyer and Redman both have yet to manage three full games as the starting RB without a wheel breaking.



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A run is a run is a run. And he has been consistent when he has been given the consistent amount of carries. Just look at the numbers I provided. The 3 games he has been the absolute starter with the full load he has had 100 yard games or close. Or something like that. There are 2 games I need to clear something up on.
And then he promptly injured his groin and has only just gotten back to near 100% in recent weeks. That does not show us he can carry the rock 300+ times per season and come away with 1000+ yards like Mendy has done.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

While I don't have the hatred for Tomlin that JIMINPA has (I think he is a pretty damn good coach, not perfect), I have to agree with his assessment on this Mendenhall situation.

It seems like Tomlin is letting personal feelings get in the way. He benches our most qualified and accomplished RB due to the same mistakes his other RBs also made. Meanwhile, Mike Wallace continues to be the other teams' MVP each game and he hasn't caught any heat at all.

Not having a healthy Mendenhall or feature back is hurting our offense. Dwyer and Redman are a pair of one-hit wonders-- they give a great game here and there, but are not consistent or dependable enough to carry the full load or be the best option in every situation.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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So why doesn't that same rationale apply to Mendenhall as well?
It does. I gave many reasons why Mendenhall isn't the best. He doesn't block as well, doesn't run hard, fumbles etc....Those have little to do with the line. If we are talking yards and rythm I agree with you. Part of his problem is our shitty line.

Quote:
Bettis had an elite offensive line blocking for him a majority of the time he spent with the Steelers, allowing him to just pound it up the gut every play. He was not known for being able to bounce runs to the outside if the middle gets clogged up.
Bettis was able to break off big runs here and there, which is all we need. We have an explosive passing game (sometimes at least) and the running backs do enough when the line doesn't fall to complete shit.

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But has yet to prove he can carry the load of a full season without the wheels coming off. As another poster already pointed out-- he had one or two good games, but has disappeared otherwise.
This argument doesn't make any sense. He hasn't proven he can carry the full load because he hasn't gotten the chance to. What I am arguing is that he should get that chance given what the numbers show. In a limited role he has been bad, I won't argue that with you. When he has gotten the main role he has been great though. 4 games with the majority of carries or a definitive starting role. We have 121 game, a 92 yard game, 146 game and the 40 + yard game vs the Titans.

When he has split carries those numbers fall to shit. I don't see what more we need to find out about him.

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Dwyer and Redman both have yet to manage three full games as the starting RB without a wheel breaking.
Can't argue that injuries haven't been a problem. It is true.

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And then he promptly injured his groin and has only just gotten back to near 100% in recent weeks. That does not show us he can carry the rock 300+ times per season and come away with 1000+ yards like Mendy has done.
True. But he needs the oppurtunity (that he has earned) before we can make a definitive statement.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

Ben Tate as the number 1 runner next year, Dwyer as 2nd RB and Redman as 3rd down and goaline if you need him. That combo would be perfect.
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