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Old 12-13-2012, 03:55 PM   #21
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
Yes, but that is ignoring the fact we have one of the worst run blocking lines in the league and a dumb rotation at back that lets nobody get a rythm. Those are both pretty significant.
Actually, it's really not one of the worst blocking lines in the NFL when we have everyone up. Here's a shocker: when we have two starting OLinemen down, and then a second string RT goes down, our line hasn't been as productive. Holy shit, who could have seen that coming?

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
I guess Bettis ran a 4.2 40 huh?
I don't understand the fascination with Bettis. Was he good for his era? Sure. He couldn't succeed in a time where guys like AP and Foster dominate the NFL. He simply wouldn't. He was a glorified fullback playing running back running behind one of the best lines in Steelers history.

Apples and oranges.


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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
On the other hand you have Redman who is a great blocker and gives Ben the same option in the flats.
Redman lacks burst and big play ability, something that would be nice to have in the flat. Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
Again, you are ignoring significant factors. None of our running backs did anything in those games because our line was playing awful and nobody got the consistent carries.
I'm ignoring significant factors? Or, maybe the running backs couldn't do anything because they're both bad running backs.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
A run is a run is a run. And he has been consistent when he has been given the consistent amount of carries. Just look at the numbers I provided. The 3 games he has been the absolute starter with the full load he has had 100 yard games or close. Or something like that. There are 2 games I need to clear something up on.
No, he hasn't been consistent and that's the point. Again, he runs for 2 yards for 15 carries and then picks up 25 yards on one carry and then 10 more on another. I mean, these are inflated stats. He's not running consistently and he's running inefficiently for the large majority of any given game. He's not an effective running back and he never will be. Out of shape and overweight in an NFL that requires guys his size to also be fast - something he'll never be.

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Not really different than any back in the league but okay.
Except, ya know, every single elite back that can bounce it outside and turn it into a 50 yard touchdown. Go watch Adrian Peterson and tell me he runs straight forward and gives up like Redman does if nothing is there. Yeah, every running back is as bad as Redman is. That's sound logic.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
It is only unfair if you continue to ignore the numbers I provided. Those guys have more yards and a couple more big plays but they also have 50-100 more carries. Not to mention lines rated a lot higher in run blocking than the Steelers.
For the love of god, for a guy that love statistics you sure love to turn a blind eye to most of them. In the significantly more amount of carries that Forte has, he only has two more "big" runs than Redman. However, he has a significantly higher YPC average. Again, what does this mean? He's a more consistent running back and picks up consistent chunks of yardage, not big gains every so often to inflate his stats.

Read that sentence a couple of times if you have to.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
Actually it does. Time of Possession is a very important part of the game and having runnings that can tire a defense and run out the clock is a big deal. If speed were that significant Mendenhall wouldn't be such a shitty back.
What? What does this even mean. Running it up the middle twice and gaining 3 yards, forcing Ben to make magic happen on third down =/= great TOP. Having a guy that can bounce it outside and make a one yard run turn into a five yard run is significant. Redman can't do this and he'll never be able to. Ben is the reason for our TOP, not our shitty running backs and their inability to do anything on first and second down.

Don't condescend me either, please. Mendenhall isn't a franchise running back - no one is arguing that. We're arguing that Redman is garbage too, and we need another running back.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
I don't neccessarily want Bettis 2.0 but Bettis 2.0 would work just fine if used right.
No. I want the next AP, please.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
1. You can't keep rotating backs in and out. That gives them no chance to find a rythm or get hot. Sure, you can have a back give one a rest once in awhile but they were switching them series by series or quarter by quarter. And I hate to keep harping on numbers but they support the argument. The 3 games in the middle of the year where we had 3 100 yard games were games where the other backs were injured so there was no question as to who was getting the ball.
Do they have a choice? Dwyer has 5 carries and picks up 2 yards, so they turn to Redman. Unfortunately, he has very similar results and they're forced to go back to Dwyer. They're being given chances to be consistent, but again, they're not capitalizing. Why? They're mediocre backs and play like such.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
2. They kill the running backs confidence with this fumble thing. Early in the year they benched Dwyer for a mistake and called him out in front of the team. 1 mistake. Most players don't get that treatment. Move forward to the Browns game where Batch needs some help and consistency and Tomlin benches 3 RB's. Yes, they fumbled but that just kills confidence in the player and the team when shit like that is happening.
Redman has fumbled twice in the redzone - that's getting your ass sat. Also, you're all about bringing up how Mendenhall has fumbled, let's talk about how Redman has put the ball on the ground twice in our own redzone.

You fumble, you're getting sat. I don't see a problem with that.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
We already have Rainey for that. That would be a wasted pick.
Mike Gillislee is 5'10 210 pounds. Knile Davis is 6'0 235. They're smaller than both Redman and Dwyer, but they're prototypical size for a running back. Chris Rainey is 5'9 180 - there's a distinction here. Gillislee is a smaller guy, but makes up for it with his speed and quickness.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
These statistics are not based on performance of the running back so you are wrong on that. These are the same numbers a lot of NFL teams use to judge there teams. Which looks at game film, weighted averages, each linemens individual performance as well as considering double teams and things like that. You can't find more accurate or telling statistics.
They're based on the running backs ability to get yardage. How they do so isn't really ever made clear, but it's a statistic that no one takes seriously. Why? It's one hundred percent subjective. Grading an offensive line that high that allows their quarterback to be sacked more times than Roethlisberger over the last 3 years is ridiculous and it's a garbage statistic. We're not wrong or right here - it's a subjective stat.

edit - you keep talking about how backs that split carries can't get into groove and are ineffective - what about Ben Tate? Ben Tate has about 40 less carries and only 100 less yards than Redman has. He's running behind Arian Foster and averaging 4.5 YPC - a truly impressive stat. He's the kind of running back we should have on this team. He's built strong but has the speed and quickness to bounce it outside to make a big play happen. It's not rocket science, here. Redman can't do anything we need him to and he's proven that in the carries he's been given. He needs to be a cap casualty next year.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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Originally Posted by SteelersCanada View Post
Actually, it's really not one of the worst blocking lines in the NFL when we have everyone up. Here's a shocker: when we have two starting OLinemen down, and then a second string RT goes down, our line hasn't been as productive. Holy shit, who could have seen that coming?
I am not arguing that. But our line hasn't been healthy so it is still on them if they suck. We don't blame the running backs for not being able to break 4 tackles in the backfield. Only Barry Sanders can do that.

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I don't understand the fascination with Bettis.
Tbh Bettis isn't that important. I was just pointing out you don't need to be fast to be successful.

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Redman lacks burst and big play ability, something that would be nice to have in the flat. Just sayin'.
Nice to have but not a neccessity. With 100 less carries he has a comparable amount of 20 + gains to McCoy and Forte that I showed in the stats earlier. I am assuming we are calling 20+ big plays. Which Redman is capable of.

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I'm ignoring significant factors?
Yeah. I have pointed them out multiple times already. You have to account for a 30th ranked run blocking line and the coaching decisions to not feature one back in particular when the numbers clearly show when you feature one they have ran better.

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No, he hasn't been consistent and that's the point.
You can't be consistent if you are given inconsistent carries.

Let me break down the argument a bit better so we aren't confused on the issue I want to point out.

What I am arguing is that given the full load or major majority of carries (ie the feature back) Redman can be successful. The numbers completely support this stance.

Last year he had 3 games where he was essentially the feature back. He ran for 49, 92 and 121. That is 2 out of 3 strong performances.

This year he had 1 game as the feature back and ran for 146 yards.

So 3 out of 4 times he has been the feature back he has proven he can do it at a high level.

What you are pointing out to counter this is that he has been inconcistent as a running back splitting carries. Those are 2 completely different things. As you said, apples and oranges.

I agree with you 100% that he was bad in a limited role. But no back really is good in such a limited role. Just look how badly Ray Rice has been used this year and he is one of the best in the league. Cam Cameron is now gone because of it.

I am saying, give Redman the full load and see what he can do. He has earned it based on his other performances with the full load. Pointing out that he hasn't been consistent splitting carries doesn't work because it isn't what I am arguing nor is it the same thing.

Now if he gets the chance and fails, fine. You are right. He is fat and can't be successful. But to this point the numbers say you are wrong.

Quote:
Go watch Adrian Peterson and tell me he runs straight forward and gives up like Redman does if nothing is there. Yeah, every running back is as bad as Redman is. That's sound logic.
There are a couple things wrong with this:

1. You are comparing the best in the NFL and maybe on of the best ever to someone who is more or less a backup. Of course the numbers aren't going to match. You can only compare if Redman is getting similar oppurtunities. What is telling is that some of the other strong backs you mentioned (Forte and McCoy) aren't far removed from Redman even though they have far more chances and better blocking lines.

2. I will pay you a million dollars if you can find a single play where Redman gave up on a run that was stuffed from the beginning. He is one of the hardest fighting backs in the NFL, regardless of success.

Quote:
For the love of god, for a guy that love statistics you sure love to turn a blind eye to most of them.
I would love for you to give one example of a statistic I have ignored. I'll wait.......

Quote:
However, he has a significantly higher YPC average.
You are still leaving out key factors here.

First, the YPC difference is far from significant. It isn't even a whole yard more. Second thing is, you are still ignoring the difference in the offensive line as well as what my main argument is. Which is that Redman is better as the feature back. You want YPC averages? Fine.

In games where Redman was the feature back he has averages of 5.7, 7.1, 4.8 and 3.3. That comes out to a 5.2 average. Above Forte.

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Redman can't do this
False. See the stats above. As a feature back he did it and did it well. Not to mention his great short yardage efficiency to keep the changes moving.

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No. I want the next AP, please.
We all do but it is far from our biggest need.

Quote:
They're being given chances to be consistent, but again, they're not capitalizing. Why? They're mediocre backs and play like such.
Wrong again. Just see the provided statistics. When one back has been made the feature back (mainly Redman I refer to) they have been consistent.

Quote:
Redman has fumbled twice in the redzone - that's getting your ass sat. Also, you're all about bringing up how Mendenhall has fumbled, let's talk about how Redman has put the ball on the ground twice in our own redzone.
I honestly don't remember those instances. Can you tell me what games they were? In any case, Mendenhall has a bigger fumble history as well as fumbling in key games at key times. They honestly aren't even comparable.

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You fumble, you're getting sat. I don't see a problem with that.
Well, maybe you like the coaching style, I dunno. But that train of thought applies nowhere else throughout the league. 1 mistake doesn't lead to benching and such. You give people a chance to redeem themselves and get hot. You don't crush confidence and basically tell the rest of the team you have no faith in any of your guys.

Quote:
They're based on the running backs ability to get yardage.
No, they aren't. I have already explained to you how they are determined. They look at individual linemen performances such as things like pancakes and stuff, they look at game tape, account for double teams and things of that nature.

You may be looking at the stats from football outsiders but those aren't the ones I am referring to. I provided those because even on a different scale they have the Steelers O line as the worst of the 4 teams we are discussing. On the Pro Football Focus site (the same stats NFL teams use to judge themselves) it is a completely different scale but still agrees the Steelers are the worst of the 4.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:52 PM   #23
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

None of our RB's can run behind a terrible O line. When the O line plays well then Redman and Dwyer run the ball well, when we only have 2 or 3 starters on the O line and some of them are out of place then Dwyer and Redman can't run at all. It's not all on the RB or all on the O line, they both have to be doing well for us to have any type of run game. Football is a team sport. Could some other big contract back run it better behind our decimated O line? Maybe a bit, but not that much better and definitely not so much better that they would be worth giving a big contract to. We have WR's, a good TE, and Rainey for big play potential, we don't necessarily have to have a back that can take it to the house, let's just get 5 or 6 when the Oline does there job. 6+ yards per carry will force the defense to change it's approach and will keep the ball moving.

I was reading through kind of quickly since I'm at work, but whoever said Bettis was overrated and just a glorified FB is an idiot. The guy is going in to the Hall of Fame, but forget about that, your more qualified to say whether he was a good RB or not right?
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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I was reading through kind of quickly since I'm at work, but whoever said Bettis was overrated and just a glorified FB is an idiot. The guy is going in to the Hall of Fame, but forget about that, your more qualified to say whether he was a good RB or not right?
That poster can speak for himself, but in his defense, I think in the context of the conversation-- his point was that Bettis was a north-south back and not one to break big plays around the edges or in open space so much. The Bettis comparisons came up because Dwyer is once again being compared to the Bus.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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We have 3 turds at running back. Pick which one has the most tolerable smell, and there ya go.
Right and we have one guy on the internet who is not in the NFL yet talks trash on people that are. Actully almost everyone on this site is the same way.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

Mendenhall has sucks ever since we passed on chris johnson and took mendy, he has always danced around and ran sideways, his first year I saw some hope for him, but his work ethic or something is wrong because he just got shittier and shittier. Redman does run with power, and is okay for now. Dwyer is a little better than Redman IM, but not much better. Bottome line is all three of the clowns are duds, props to redman and dwyer for actually trying. Mendy can go to hell for not showing up, just because he got benched for sucking so bad. I really think that half back should be out #1 priority to fill in the off season. We should probably use our first draft pick for a good half back, and keep dwyer or redman around for full back, I guess redman would make the better blocker. Anyways we can't have this one dimensional offense any more, its putting to much pressure on Big Ben and our young and talented receiving core, We've all hated on wallace this season, but I really think if we let wallace sanders and brown mature a little more they will be just fine. We just need a running game. Fix that and our offense is much better, yeah our line could use improvement but what good is a line if we have no running back? None of our back are threats for big gains, maybe a 10 yard run here and there but I don;t think any of them can bust for a 50 yard TD run like peterson or some of the better RBs in the league....
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:10 PM   #27
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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I was reading through kind of quickly since I'm at work, but whoever said Bettis was overrated and just a glorified FB is an idiot. The guy is going in to the Hall of Fame, but forget about that, your more qualified to say whether he was a good RB or not right?
Dude, Bettis sucked.

He rode on the coat-tails of QBs who used precision passing to spread the field, which forced the SS (and sometimes even a LB) to drop back into coverage. Even I could run in those open running lanes (six in the box will do that for a RB).

The next time that Bettis sees them, Bettis owes Kent Graham, Mike Tomczak, and Jim Miller each a beer.

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Old 12-13-2012, 09:36 PM   #28
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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1. His nickname for years has been Redzone Redman. He has that name for a reason and only now are we deciding to really lean on him for short yardage plays.
the reason is bacause redzone and redman both start with the word "red". it has as much to do with his redzone production as mendy getting his "nickname" looking like morks girlfriend. na-noo na-noo.

if isaacs last name was Benchworth his nickmname would be "bench warmer benchworth".

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Old 12-13-2012, 09:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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the reason is bacause redzone and redman both start with the word "red". it has as much to do with his redzone production as mendy getting his "nickname" looking like morks girlfriend. na-noo na-noo.

if isaacs last name was Benchworth his nickmname would be "bench warmer benchworth".

Lol. That is pretty funny.

But nah. It came from his production in his goal line drills vs the Steelers D and/or from his early years with the team when he scored a bunch in preseason.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:16 PM   #30
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Default Re: Running back.....Confusion.

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Lol. That is pretty funny.

But nah. It came from his production in his goal line drills vs the Steelers D and/or from his early years with the team when he scored a bunch in preseason.
Your claim was that we were finally starting to lean on him in the redzone, but that doesn't seem to be true. I've seen Dwyer and Rainey getting the call more often.
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