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Old 12-16-2012, 02:08 PM   #51
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Originally Posted by MACH1 View Post
Liberals blame the guns, I blame the criminals,

So Dan, should .223's be banned whether their painted black or wrapped in a walnut stock, because they both shoot the same. If so where do you stop, .222, .243, .308, 30-06 where?

As far as .233's go their far from being a "high powered" rifle.
It is a public policy (not a Second Amendment) question - write your Congressman about which guns any lunatic with a mother who wants to indulge him can possess - the bill is being introduced in 2013

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/1...aws-85135.html

My side has been getting rolled for 20 years on this issue - but now the Dems have figured out that they can win national elections without certain demographic groups. Having already lost a lot of districts where the NRA is strong they may be willing to tell the NRA to screw itself and let the GOP build upon its winning electoral strategy in 2012 by now defending the zero tolerance position on regulating owenership of all guns.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:30 PM   #52
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

We'll see how it pans out but it's only going to affect law abiding people not the criminals or nut jobs. Where theres a will theres a way.

Public policy does not override the constitution.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:18 PM   #53
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Originally Posted by MACH1 View Post
We'll see how it pans out but it's only going to affect law abiding people not the criminals or nut jobs. Where theres a will theres a way.

Public policy does not override the constitution.
Yes and no. I'm sure there's a will among the nutjobs to blow shit up in dramatic fashion, yet aside from OK City and 911 it hasn't really happened. That's because there are restrictions on obtaining explosives (and airplanes). We passed laws. I don't know about you, but I don't feel any less free because I'm not allowed to purchase nuclear weapons and rocket launchers.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:29 PM   #54
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

Gun control is a joke. There is no such thing, no matter what "laws" are passed.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:29 PM   #55
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Originally Posted by MACH1 View Post
We'll see how it pans out but it's only going to affect law abiding people not the criminals or nut jobs. Where theres a will theres a way.

Public policy does not override the constitution.
Agreed - when the Supeme Court held an absolute ban upon ownership of handguns violated the Second Amendment it did not hold the types of weapons used in the Newtown murders could not be banned

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.26

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.


District of Columbia v. Heller (2008)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html

Liberals from the 1980s expected the judiciary to bail them out when they could no longer win arguments in the legislature - after the Supreme Court upheld Obamcare I would not count on a legal challenge to any restrictions upon ownership of weapons such as those used in Newtown being successful

Last edited by Atlanta Dan; 12-16-2012 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:51 PM   #56
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Gun control is a joke. There is no such thing, no matter what "laws" are passed.
It's not as though there is any lack of examples from around the globe of varying degrees of gun control laws. The only joke is the one that is perpetually pulled on the American people, the last two in Connecticut and Oregon. We'll have many, many more of these sad jokes, but we're not allowed to do anything about it. Just laugh and cry into our beers.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:15 AM   #57
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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It's not as though there is any lack of examples from around the globe of varying degrees of gun control laws. The only joke is the one that is perpetually pulled on the American people, the last two in Connecticut and Oregon. We'll have many, many more of these sad jokes, but we're not allowed to do anything about it. Just laugh and cry into our beers.
The real difference in those nations is culture though. British people, for example, never really needed gun control laws. Even when most guns were fairly legal, they didn't have a gun death problem. And they certainly didn't have one when they insisted on stricter regulations. It works for them because they don't have as many nutters running around, and they deal with their social issues in a different way than we do.

There are definitely countries that have more lenient gun laws than the often cited UK example, that don't have alarming gun death rates (Switzerland for example).

There's no easy answer for the gun debate in the US. I'm not for very restrictive gun bans...but I am for very intense background checks and mandatory training, as well as having to be re-issued licenses at least every 4 years. That would include going through background checks again and updating your training.

Mental health problems need to be addressed in this country as well (I know someone brought this up already). And they need properly dealt with at an earlier age. I have no real solution to this either, except to say that much of it could be deterred with better parenting overall in this country...but that comes back to culture. Stricter gun laws may seem like a nice idea, but we need to figure out why we have so many people who want to kill other people to really get at a solution. Guns didn't just up and start telling people to kill other people. The crazy in that person's head did that.

It's a crazy time right now, and I can understand why people would want stricter gun laws. It's not like it doesn't make sense from certain aspects. I'm just not for it if a person clearly shows that they don't have a criminal record, and are sane and capable.

I agree that very restrictive gun laws wouldn't work in the US. The black market on guns is too deep here. I think they would work just about as well as restrictive drug laws have worked here.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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We'll see how it pans out but it's only going to affect law abiding people not the criminals or nut jobs. Where theres a will theres a way.

Public policy does not override the constitution.

Where did the latest nut job get his guns? If only his first victim had been armed....oh, wait.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:17 PM   #59
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Originally Posted by MACH1 View Post
We'll see how it pans out but it's only going to affect law abiding people not the criminals or nut jobs. Where theres a will theres a way.

Public policy does not override the constitution.
No, thankfully it doesn't.

And as much gasoline as the media pour on this, the sane among us still far outnumber the insane. "The public" are able to discern isolated acts from broad societal problems...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...tural-problem/



Politics will follow. And pols, being the self serving @#$%s they are, won't do anything to cost themselves votes...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ws-in-1-chart/

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Old 12-17-2012, 03:54 PM   #60
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Where did the latest nut job get his guns? If only his first victim had been armed....oh, wait.
You're talking about a mother/son relationship. This guy had obvious mental problems, and was going to do what he was going to do...gun or no gun.

What if he grabbed his mothers kitchen knife? Who would you blame then?
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