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Old 12-18-2012, 07:53 AM   #81
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

Several ironies emerge from this Sandy Hook tragedy. Two in particular should leap forward, were it not for the crisis “management” of the left and their mouthpieces, the “media”.

We are presented with the aftermath of the attack – a chaotic sea of “first responders” armed to the teeth, clad in body armor, their vehicles strewn about the landscape. A show of force. A statement. “This will not stand”. “We come against this”. This against the background of how many gubmint schools equipped with metal detectors, armed security, and “protocols”. What? Sandy Hook was an oversight? Couldn’t fund a few guards for that little school out of the trillions taken from us every year? If you’re looking for something to blame, blame those to whom we foolishly trust our “security”, the ones that show up to posture and preen AFTER something like this has occurred. Yeah, it reeks of irony. We’re being told that we don’t “need” to be armed, that we should take this tragedy as our instruction to surrender the ONLY thing that stands between us and another tragedy, our weapons. That’s rich. And with 300-500 million guns in the hands of citizens, it isn’t going to happen.

“Oh, but we must get these ‘assault rifles’ out of the hands of… blah, blah, blah…”. The fly in the ointment here is that an “assault rifle” wasn’t involved. This was the isolated act of a single kid, dazed by psychotropic drugs, that took his mother’s weapons, killed her, then “acted out” whatever psychedelia the drugs imposed on his diseased little mind. Regrettably a happy little country school was in the way. Looking for something to blame? Yeah, of course, it was the “assault rifle”. “We desperately need to get them off the street”. Right?

But the irony that should drown out all others in this tragedy is the loss of the children themselves. 20 of them. Every one a dear one. Every one a staggering loss. What might they have become? What could possibly replace them? I know personally how this feels, so don’t take what I say here as rhetoric. The irony here is that this tragedy occurred in a state that murders on average between 35 to 50 of its children each day, depending on whose figures you cite – the CDC or AGI. Every day. Since before they started keeping those statistics. And every day going forward.

Every one of those children died a death we wouldn’t wish on satan himself. Every one was torn from their mother’s womb in unspeakable agony and cast in a dumpster like a bad habit. Indeed the mourner in chief that descends from on high with his “tears” brought forth as a state senator “legislation” to ensure that an aborted child that “accidently” survived would be killed rather than giving it the life support we’d give to a fallen enemy on a battle field. I hesitate to call this irony more than the unholy bull@#$% that it is.

So I won’t. Newtown isn’t about the children. We demonstrated that when we failed to protect them. We demonstrate that daily as we destroy more than twice their number in that state alone, without a thought. For some reason, those 20 little souls that perished that day are more important to us than the countless little souls that weren’t given the opportunity to experience all that we ourselves have enjoyed. Maybe that’s what lies beneath our shock and outrage at this tragedy. Maybe it is our own souls crying out for the innocents whose blood is on all our hands.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:29 AM   #82
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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"Gun enthusiast" is one term to describe the murdered mother - survivalist is another

The mother apparently told a kid who used to babysit the shooter never to turn his back on him. Yet the mother saw nothing wrong with teaching the murderer to become proficient in the use of the weapons used in the slaughter at Sandy Hook.? Walk me through what part of that was responsible parenting.
I never commented on her skills as a parent, nor will I. I don't personally know these folks...hell, I've never even spoken to them online, so I'm not going to pretend that I have some kind of insider information into her parenting skills. All I know is that my own daughter respects life and the use of firearms. She knows it's not some kind of joke.

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With regard to why, to use your term, "we are so much more far gone than other 1st world nations," I would respectfully submit the current talking points that blame it all on video games and inadequate mental health treatment ignores the elephant in the room (sorry to use a picture)
Mental health treatment, definitely. Video games? Maybe...though I'm remiss to single that out. The news and cartoons can be very violent as well.


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America’s gun-related murder rate is the highest in the developed world, excluding Mexico, where the ongoing drug war pushes the murder stats way up. The question of what causes the U.S. firearm-related homicide rate is a complicated one involving many variables, but it certainly seems plausible, especially the day after a knife attack in China injured 22 children but killed none, that one of those variables would be access to firearms. And, in this regard, America is truly exceptional.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...n-four-charts/
Does it matter that more people's lives are saved by guns each year? Depends on who you ask, I guess.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:44 AM   #83
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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I never commented on her skills as a parent, nor will I. I don't personally know these folks...hell, I've never even spoken to them online, so I'm not going to pretend that I have some kind of insider information into her parenting skills. All I know is that my own daughter respects life and the use of firearms. She knows it's not some kind of joke.
SC Mom - I am not sayng teaching responsible people such as your daughter how to use firearms is improper. But this guy was so far gone he had his own school psycholgist minder while he was enrolled in high school in Newtown.and should not have been given access to a burnt match, let alone a Bushmaster.

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Does it matter that more people's lives are saved by guns each year? Depends on who you ask, I guess.
Stats on number of lives saved by non-law enforcement use of firearms as opposed to lives lost by non-law enforcerment use of firearms?

Just want to let everyone know I respect the opinions of those who do not share my views on increased regulation of firearms. While there are absolutists on both sides of this problem who cannot debate the issue, IMO it is a debate that needs to occur.

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Old 12-18-2012, 08:55 AM   #84
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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SC Mom - I am not sayng teaching responsible people such as your daughter how to use firearms is improper. But this guy was so far gone he had his own school psycholgist minder while he was enrolled in high school in Newtown.and should not have been given access to a burnt match, let alone a Bushmaster.



Stats on number of lives saved by non-law enforcement use of firearms as opposed to lives lost by non-law enforcerment use of firearms?

Just want to let everyone know I respect the opinions of those who do not share my views on increased regulation of firearms. While there are absolutists on both sides of this problem who cannot debate the issue, IMO it is a debate that needs to occur.

As do I...even if it doesn't always seem like it lol. And I agree, these are things that need talked about, extensively.

I'm not totally opposed to some gun regulations, but I don't think knee jerk gun regulation actions are going to solve anything. You brought up a ban on larger gun clips (most people use those for target shooting). I don't see, at all, how that would make anything that happened in CT, or any other shooting, any better.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:04 AM   #85
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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As do I...even if it doesn't always seem like it lol. And I agree, these are things that need talked about, extensively.

I'm not totally opposed to some gun regulations, but I don't think knee jerk gun regulation actions are going to solve anything. You brought up a ban on larger gun clips (most people use those for target shooting). I don't see, at all, how that would make anything that happened in CT, or any other shooting, any better.
If he was required to reload he might not have been able to get off as many shots - the medical examiner said each victim had anywhere from 3 to 10 bullet wounds - that is anywhere from 72 to 240 rounds he emptied into 2 rooms where 24 were murdred after he took down the principal and school psychologist

Same thing with The Joker in Aurora

As far as target shooting, if you want to go to a range and purchase the clip there and use the clip on site that avoids having the clips in the stream (sewer?) of commerce
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:10 AM   #86
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

Little kids got shot and killed...I don't think the size of the clip or having to reload (which, if he got off that many shots, he probably had to reload at some point), would ease any of the parents hearts. I understand your point, but even if he walked in there with a 6 shooter, it still would have been a tragedy.

It takes the focus in the wrong direction, IMO. Stricter gun regulations aren't going to even serve as a bandaid fix to what the real issues are. And those regulations aren't going to deter criminals and crazy murderous bastards at all.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:33 AM   #87
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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The mother apparently told a kid who used to babysit the shooter never to turn his back on him.
I've heard that reported several times, but there's never been a source given. The media has reported so many wrong details in this tragedy that I won't believe anything until it's confirmed by a reliable source. In this case, it would be nice to hear from the babysitter.

I've seen quite a few interviews with friends of the family who said there was no indication that Adam was violent, which is contrary to the reports about what the babysitter supposedly said. By all accounts, the mother was a loving and caring person. But there's no way she should have exposed her son to guns. I wouldn't even need hindsight to say it was a mistake.

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Little kids got shot and killed...I don't think the size of the clip or having to reload (which, if he got off that many shots, he probably had to reload at some point), would ease any of the parents hearts. I understand your point, but even if he walked in there with a 6 shooter, it still would have been a tragedy.

It takes the focus in the wrong direction, IMO. Stricter gun regulations aren't going to even serve as a bandaid fix to what the real issues are. And those regulations aren't going to deter criminals and crazy murderous bastards at all.
Agreed. The killing of 20 kids is a tragedy. If it had been only 6 kids, it would still be a tragedy. And I don't think the parents of those 6 kids would take comfort in knowing that it could have been worse.

These mass shootings are a problem, and it's beyond time for some serious and continued dialogue. I believe that if we just ban certain kinds of guns, we're treating a symptom and not the problem. The problem is whatever makes these people decide to open fire on innocent people. That's what we should be focusing on. I know it's become cliche, but guns don't kill people ... people kill people. And we need to figure out why these people are doing it. That's our best hope for preventing these tragedies. If we take away the guns but not these people's desire to kill, we haven't solved the problem. We've only lessened it. And that won't be any consolation to the people who will still lose loved ones my means other than a semi-automatic weapon.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:09 AM   #88
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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These mass shootings are a problem, and it's beyond time for some serious and continued dialogue. I believe that if we just ban certain kinds of guns, we're treating a symptom and not the problem. The problem is whatever makes these people decide to open fire on innocent people. That's what we should be focusing on. I know it's become cliche, but guns don't kill people ... people kill people. And we need to figure out why these people are doing it. That's our best hope for preventing these tragedies. If we take away the guns but not these people's desire to kill, we haven't solved the problem. We've only lessened it. And that won't be any consolation to the people who will still lose loved ones my means other than a semi-automatic weapon.
Why these people do these things is the core of the issue at Newtown......







.... but its absolutely the last thing that will be discussed, much less investigated.

Gotta get those dreaded guns off the street. You betcha!
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:39 AM   #89
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Little kids got shot and killed...I don't think the size of the clip or having to reload (which, if he got off that many shots, he probably had to reload at some point), would ease any of the parents hearts. I understand your point, but even if he walked in there with a 6 shooter, it still would have been a tragedy.

It takes the focus in the wrong direction, IMO. Stricter gun regulations aren't going to even serve as a bandaid fix to what the real issues are. And those regulations aren't going to deter criminals and crazy murderous bastards at all.
You assert this as fact, that gun control laws are completely worthless. Where do you get this idea? In almost the same breath you say you aren't completely opposed to gun control laws, so you are conflicted at a minimum. Also, you and I both know that the claims about lives saved by guns are creative accounting at best. Real people are killed every minute by guns; wishful anecdotes and hero fantasies are saved by them.

Like I said before, none of these psychos ever seem to get downed even by a cop, let alone an armed bystander. They either take their own lives or they get wrestled to the ground while reloading (a strong argument against large clip automatics and semiautomatic).

Vinnie's ****-stroking about armed first responders misses the obvious (shock!): they were less than useless, nothing but an insult to grieving parents after the fact. But his stance is very useful in illustrating what I think you are referring to when you say the problem is cultural. Gun love is the problem. Testosterone-driven power fantasies are the problem. Trust me, if nuclear weapons were legal, Vinny would have one... to "defend" himself, of course.

People need to step back from these insecurities and fantasies, for sure. But again, these are cultural issues, and we have no right forcing cultural changes, belief changes on people. We do have a right to legislate arms control. And there are good reasons to believe gun control laws will minimize the killing, but not stop it of course. Maybe minimize it greatly. Only one way to find out.

Getting onto a plane. Check in with you all later.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:03 PM   #90
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Default Re: Connecticut school shooting

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Little kids got shot and killed...I don't think the size of the clip or having to reload (which, if he got off that many shots, he probably had to reload at some point), would ease any of the parents hearts. I understand your point, but even if he walked in there with a 6 shooter, it still would have been a tragedy.

It takes the focus in the wrong direction, IMO. Stricter gun regulations aren't going to even serve as a bandaid fix to what the real issues are. And those regulations aren't going to deter criminals and crazy murderous bastards at all.
He killed off more kids with a semi-automatic and a big clip than he would have with a six shooter in the same amount of time - as soon as the first responders arrived he killed himself so he was working in a tight time frame

Every life has value and hearts are broken with very loss, but there were a lot more losses and a lot more hearts broken because of how that lunatic was armed

When Australia instituted significant increases in gun regulation the stats showed a significant reduction in deaths , so i am uncertain what your statistical basis is for saying any increased regulation of guns would be a "band aid"

On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia’s history.

Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.

At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia.

What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.


http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/201...provide_a.html

You busted on Vis earlier about not proposing any specific solutions but when specific solutions are suggested all I am hearing in return that it will not work with no explanation as to why it clearly will not work, other than it is "the wrong direction."

So I guess your position is you have a zero tolerance approach to barring the sales of any types of ammo or weapon? You may regard any such action as an unjustified impingement upon a fundamental right but to say it would be futile is not a foregone conclusion.

So what are "the real issues"? Mental health treatment can be improved but the shooter's Dad was a senior executive at GE Capital and his Mom was gettimng $325K per year in alimony and child support - it was not as if the family lacked the financial ability to get teh finest psychiatric treatment $$ can buy.
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