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Old 12-20-2012, 02:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

[MP3][/MP3]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
I agree with you-- somewhat. What you are asking for here, is Bruce Arians to come back to the Burgh.

The goal of Haley's offense is to take the high-percentage gains and keep Ben from holding the ball trying to force something downfield.
Arians in the only OC that ever takes shots down field? High-percentage stuff might make Ben's stats look good, but it has resulted in the 20th ranked scoring offense.



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Although he is quick, sending Antonio Brown deep is not using him the correct way. He is a possession receiver, who specializes in YAC.

Mike Wallace's talent is single-fold-- he can run really fast. Can't catch, can't run clean routes. Sure, send him deep every play. For what it's worth-- teams don't fear him as uch anymore. he does not draw the double coverage he did in past years. They know he will drop it.
Well when you don't take shots, the other team has nothing to respect.



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Ala Bruce Arians......
Well, Haley didn't keep him safe either. "But there were injuries to the offensive line!" Hey, there were injuries to the offensive line in years past and it wasn't an excuse. You don't dumb down your strengths because you're shitting your pants over your perceived weaknesses. The Steelers have done that, play small ball, and it has resulted in a 7-7 record thus far.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
[MP3][/MP3]Well, Haley didn't keep him safe either.
An injury can happen on ANY play. And, it only takes ONE play for the QB to be out. Ergo, the goal is to limit the number of times that the QB is subject to being hit.

Less sacks = less hits = less opportunity for injury

The sacks are down. Period.

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it has resulted in a 7-7 record thus far.
Fumbles.

The Oakland game was fumbled away.
The Cleveland game was absolutely fumbled away.
The Dallas game was fumbled away.

Plus, BB being out for three games probably had something to do with this record.

Before his injury, this team was 6-3 and rolling.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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Originally Posted by teegre View Post
An injury can happen on ANY play. And, it only takes ONE play for the QB to be out. Ergo, the goal is to limit the number of times that the QB is subject to being hit.

Less sacks = less hits = less opportunity for injury

The sacks are down. Period.
But they're playing scared. The Steelers are so worried about what "could" happen that they dumb down their strengths to try and cover up perceived weaknesses. And generally in sports when you worry about getting hurt, you get hurt - ala Ben missing 3 weeks.

The truth is this offense doesn't utilize its best weapons in the most effective way (in fear of what "could" happen), and it's no better at scoring than Arians' offense was. Quite odd isn't it? Todd Haley has a history of adapting a scheme to best fit his personnel. Maybe he's not in full control.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
But they're playing scared. The Steelers are so worried about what "could" happen that they dumb down their strengths to try and cover up perceived weaknesses. And generally in sports when you worry about getting hurt, you get hurt - ala Ben missing 3 weeks.

The truth is this offense doesn't utilize its best weapons in the most effective way (in fear of what "could" happen), and it's no better at scoring than Arians' offense was. Quite odd isn't it? Todd Haley has a history of adapting a scheme to best fit his personnel. Maybe he's not in full control.
MAKEABLE THIRD DOWNS
I disagree with the first paragraph. Simply, as Greg Cosell said this morning, "They are playing smarter & better."

Think about it this way. Here is how it was:

1st & 10... deep... incomplete
2nd & 10... deep... incomplete
3rd & 10... the defense knows it's a pass... sack.

Versus how the Haley system is supposed to go:

1st & 10... look deep... dump off to AB
2nd & 7... look deep... dump off to Heath
3rd & 4... the defense is guessing (run or pass?)... AND it is makeable yardage.

That said, and I know you well enough to foresee your reply... alas, here is what it has actually been too much of:

1st & 10... run up the middle
2nd & 9... run up the middle
3rd & 8... the defense knows it's a pass... BB throws it away.

THE SCHEME
I agree with you about SOME of the second paragraph.

The scoring (or lack thereof) is a concern. That said, before the injury, it was not a problem. And, again, the fumbles killed many scoring drives.

Speaking of fumbles, I truly think that Haley has designed plays to the strengths of AB & Heath. While Heath has exceled, AB has fumbled (literally). And we all agree: not enough deep passes to Wallace (maybe not 6 per game, like I suggested, but more than once per game).

As far as Haley not having control, that was a very clever way of blaming Art II. I gotta give you credit for that roundabout way of slipping that in. Kudos for creativity.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:34 PM   #15
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

This team was still underachieving in scoring offense before anyone went down with an injury, but that's to be expected from this type of offense. When you're more concerned with TOP and grinding down the clock, you aren't going to score much.

You don't want to hear this, but many of you hate Arians for the wrong reasons. You hate him because he didn't make this offense look like the offense from the early 70's. The truth is they lead the league in TOP last year, they averaged 4.4 yds/carry on running plays, and they were good at moving the ball in between the 20's. Where the Arians offense failed is where this offense still fails - scoring. Too many field goals, not enough TDs. No killer instinct, just a team that plays scared.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

I have NFL Game Rewind and watch the coach's film, and I would agree that we are better with Haley, and could be A LOT better if he fixes a few minor things and our WR's hang on to the ball. Ben throwing INT's for 6 points in Dallas and Denver basically ended those games for us, and Sanders/Wallace/Brown can't hang on to the ball AFTER the catch. Wallace doesn't seem to even be able to make the catch half the time. So it's obvious that Haley hasn't got much help from the players.

Ben was having a career year before the injury and we were running it pretty decent before we lost multiple offensive lineman, and Heath is being used properly finally. Also, the smaller details like using a FB, using Heath to help Adams when he had to come in at RT, etc. are things that Arians didn't even know was possible.

My major (and pretty much only) problem with Haley is that everybody is running a short route. When i watch the coach's film, often times we have EVERY WR/TE/RB running a route of 7 yards or less. I'm not talking about the screen's or trick type plays, I'm talking about every 1st and 2nd down. When I re-watched last game we literally had 4 plays where every target ran a route less then 5 yards. Throw it down field sometimes!! I'm not talking about deep balls, but it is called a "forward" pass, throw it down field 10-15 yards so we can actually get a first down on 1st or 2nd. And run it outside sometimes, running up the gut is not working well. If our WR's could hang on to the ball and Haley would get some routes down field this offense would be top notch.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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My major (and pretty much only) problem with Haley is that everybody is running a short route. When i watch the coach's film, often times we have EVERY WR/TE/RB running a route of 7 yards or less. I'm not talking about the screen's or trick type plays, I'm talking about every 1st and 2nd down. When I re-watched last game we literally had 4 plays where every target ran a route less then 5 yards. Throw it down field sometimes!! I'm not talking about deep balls, but it is called a "forward" pass, throw it down field 10-15 yards so we can actually get a first down on 1st or 2nd. And run it outside sometimes, running up the gut is not working well. If our WR's could hang on to the ball and Haley would get some routes down field this offense would be top notch.
It's simple - it's because they're scared. They worry to much about what could go wrong, so they dumb down all their strengths. "Oh no! Ben could get hurt if he throws deep!" "Oh no! It could fall incomplete!" "Oh no! It could get intercepted!" "Oh no! We won't look like the team from the 70's if we do that!"

It's chicken shit, small ball, scared football. The defense does the same with the 10 yard cushions and "tackle the catch." No big plays are being made for this Steeler team because they worry more about what could go wrong. Who has won a super bowl playing like that?
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

How many points a game are we averaging this year? I know the "Arians is a criminal against mankind" faction were always frustrated that we had a hard time putting up points even with a great QB.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

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Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
This team was still underachieving in scoring offense before anyone went down with an injury
I would say that it was decent... slightly better than last year, but truthfully, not as good as anyone would want. That number dropped signifcantly in BB's absence.

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When you're more concerned with TOP and grinding down the clock
Again, where did you read this? see this? hear this?

Haley stated that his goals were to protect BB (in his initial press conference),a nd he has doen that. I have never once read that his main goal was TOP.

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You hate him because he didn't make this offense look like the offense from the early 70's.
Putting words in other people's mouths. I have yet to read ANYONE say anything like that. (We hate him for different reasons.)

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The truth is they lead the league in TOP last year, they averaged 4.4 yds/carry on running plays, and they were good at moving the ball in between the 20's. Where the Arians offense failed is where this offense still fails - scoring. Too many field goals, not enough TDs.
You repeated yourself, and I shall do the same: I would say that it was decent... slightly better than last year, but truthfully, not as good as anyone would want. That number dropped signifcantly in BB's absence.

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No killer instinct, just a team that plays scared.
I am going to believe what Greg Cosell said about this team... because, he is a respected professional who makes objective remarks after film study. No stats; just film. He says the offense was on the right track... and I agree with him.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: GREG COSELL: Haley & Big Ben

You mean it isn't blatantly obvious the Steelers are overly concerned with TOP? Where do I see it? I see it in the way they play. I see it when Wallace is only sent a few yards down field. I see it when they try to run up the middle on 1st and 2nd downs. I've heard in Tomlin's press conferences earlier in the season, something along the lines of "we want to possess the ball."

You can site stats or talk about the mandate to protect Ben all you want, but what matters most is 20th in scoring and 7-7. The team needs a change in offensive philosophy. Instead of fearing the quick strike teams, they need to become one.
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