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Old 12-24-2012, 01:05 AM   #21
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Default Re: Our RB situation.

I don't see Redman as a feature back at all nor Dwyer for that matter. The Steelers need a star in the backfield. I'm dreaming I know.

Also Tomlin has completely mishandled the RB situation.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:18 AM   #22
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Default Re: Our RB situation.

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Originally Posted by ZoneBlitzer View Post
I don't see Redman as a feature back at all nor Dwyer for that matter. The Steelers need a star in the backfield. I'm dreaming I know.
People don't see it because they haven't let him show it. But I stress again. Consider the numbers.

He has 3 career games with 17 or more carries. The results are as follows:

19 carries for 92 yards with a 4.8 avg and a long of 22.
17 carries for 121 yards with a 7.1 avg and a long of 32 (playoff game).
26 carries for 146 yards with a 5.6 avg and a long of 28.

So he is 3 for 3 with good games as a "feature" back. Including being able to get a splash play in each. He is our best blocking black, can catch out of the backfield and is a menace in short yardage situations which also makes him a menace at the goalline. He wears down defenses and never goes down on the first tackle. I am not sure I remember a back with more fight than this guy has. And looking at the numbers above his best game was a playoff game, so we know he can do it on the big stage.

So answer me this. What isn't to like? Inconsistent running behind an inconsistent line with an inconsistent amount of carries? I agree. I don't like that either but that is on the coaches.

Everyone here is calling for a feature back when we have a guy right under our noses.

So what arguments are going to be made.

1. He gets injured. He had 1 injury this year that kept him out of one game. Compared to Mendenall who we all know the results of his injury.

2. He is too slow. Really? Is that why he consistently has gains of 20 plus and just 2 games ago broke a 22 yarder to the outside? Yes, he is slow. But so was Hines Ward. So was Jerome Bettis. Being fast doesn't mean being good. It certainly helps but it is far from necessary.

3. He hasn't done it consistently. Well, you can't make that argument until we have seen it. If he is 3 for 3 why is he not getting a shot to be the feature guy? Especially given that he is playoff proven and does it when it counts.


Look, it isn't like I am arguing this because I know the guy and like him. I am arguing facts and stats here. I want any back we have to be successful regardless of who starts. I am just curious why everyone seems to be ignoring what is right in front of them.


Edit

Some may wonder why I say 17 carries. Earlier in the season some analyst pointed out how when Ray Rice had 17 or more carries the Ravens won and when less they lost. So I looked at one of the best backs in the league and one from our division which is who we have to compete with most to come up with that number. Keeping that in mind, we won 2 of the 3 games when Redman had 17 or more carries as well. And lets be honest, the one loss was on the defense in OT vs the Broncos.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:19 AM   #23
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Default Re: Our RB situation.

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Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
When was this? I don't recall him ever even getting to play.
Batch had 10 carries for 22 yards against the Titans. He played about 5 other games, as well. Half the carries I saw him make he would cut away from the gaps he had and run into traffic. It was horrible. Seriously. He had no vision at all.


Quote:
3 out of 4 games where either of them had 15-17+ carries were 100 yard running games and we won all 3 of them. You my friend, couldn't be more wrong.
Really? How about Dwyers 19 carries against the Chiefs for a whopping 56 yards? Or his 16 carries against Baltimore for 49? 14 Today on the Bengals and all he could muster was 39 yards. Mendy, who you seem to hate, did much better. 12 carries against the Jets, who were pure shit, went for 28 yards. Horrible.

Redman ran 12 times on the Jets and only came up with 25 yards. 13 against Philly for 41, and 11 for 20 against Denver.

Those are shit numbers any way you slice it. I know a few of those are 2 or 3 carries short of the 15 you wanted to see, but come on, are you going to argue that those 2 extra carries would have gone for 30 a pop, every time, and given these guys 6 more 100 yard games? Unlikely.

Mendenhall showed that he can either run it up the middle with enough speed to gain good yardage, or bounce it outside and turn the corner. Dwyer and Redman have historically shown that it results in either an oxygen tent on the sidelines for Dwyer, or an injury for Redman. This is Mendy's bread and butter, and it's getting to be a requirement to be a threat at RB in the modern NFL. The reason teams were shutting down our run lately is because they know Dwyer and Redman lack that speed, so could clog the middle and ignore the run game from that point on.

I am fine with Tomlin as a coach, but believe he didn't handle the RB's right. Coming down on Mendenhall the way he did was silly, when we have Wallace taking plays off, whining about not getting the ball, and dropping or fumbling all over. Ben calls out the OC in the press, and throws away our season, and there are zero repercussions there.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:26 AM   #24
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Default Re: Our RB situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
People don't see it because they haven't let him show it. But I stress again. Consider the numbers.

He has 3 career games with 17 or more carries. The results are as follows:

19 carries for 92 yards with a 4.8 avg and a long of 22.
17 carries for 121 yards with a 7.1 avg and a long of 32 (playoff game).
26 carries for 146 yards with a 5.6 avg and a long of 28.

So he is 3 for 3 with good games as a "feature" back. Including being able to get a splash play in each. He is our best blocking black, can catch out of the backfield and is a menace in short yardage situations which also makes him a menace at the goalline. He wears down defenses and never goes down on the first tackle. I am not sure I remember a back with more fight than this guy has. And looking at the numbers above his best game was a playoff game, so we know he can do it on the big stage.

So answer me this. What isn't to like? Inconsistent running behind an inconsistent line with an inconsistent amount of carries? I agree. I don't like that either but that is on the coaches.

Everyone here is calling for a feature back when we have a guy right under our noses.

So what arguments are going to be made.

1. He gets injured. He had 1 injury this year that kept him out of one game. Compared to Mendenall who we all know the results of his injury.

2. He is too slow. Really? Is that why he consistently has gains of 20 plus and just 2 games ago broke a 22 yarder to the outside? Yes, he is slow. But so was Hines Ward. So was Jerome Bettis. Being fast doesn't mean being good. It certainly helps but it is far from necessary.

3. He hasn't done it consistently. Well, you can't make that argument until we have seen it. If he is 3 for 3 why is he not getting a shot to be the feature guy? Especially given that he is playoff proven and does it when it counts.


Look, it isn't like I am arguing this because I know the guy and like him. I am arguing facts and stats here. I want any back we have to be successful regardless of who starts. I am just curious why everyone seems to be ignoring what is right in front of them.


Edit

Some may wonder why I say 17 carries. Earlier in the season some analyst pointed out how when Ray Rice had 17 or more carries the Ravens won and when less they lost. So I looked at one of the best backs in the league and one from our division which is who we have to compete with most to come up with that number. Keeping that in mind, we won 2 of the 3 games when Redman had 17 or more carries as well. And lets be honest, the one loss was on the defense in OT vs the Broncos.
Ok. You've convinced me. Lets give him a shot!
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:43 AM   #25
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Default Re: Our RB situation.

The blame for the shortcomings at the RB position go above Tomlin in this case. Ownership wanted emphasis on the running game. With Mendenhall still out from the ACL tear, their only options in-house were Dwyer and Redman. There were options in free agency such as Brandon Jacobs and Michael Bush, but they ignored that. Simply put, the Steelers overrated their own talent at the RB position.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:37 AM   #26
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Default Re: Our RB situation.

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Originally Posted by Darkstorm05 View Post
Batch had 10 carries for 22 yards against the Titans. He played about 5 other games, as well. Half the carries I saw him make he would cut away from the gaps he had and run into traffic. It was horrible. Seriously. He had no vision at all.
Well, he is on my young guy list to improve so I don't have much too add. I guess we will see overtime what comes of him. I say he at least needs some more reps before making a final decision.

Quote:
I know a few of those are 2 or 3 carries short of the 15 you wanted to see, but come on, are you going to argue that those 2 extra carries would have gone for 30 a pop, every time, and given these guys 6 more 100 yard games? Unlikely.
It really depends. Rythm is key for an RB. Now maybe those 2 don't go for 30 each but maybe you have 1 for say 10 and 1 for 20+ mixed in there. Coaches decide to run more and you end up with 20-25 carries for 100+

Obviously we are playing a lot of guessing here but still. The top 8 backs in the league (total yards wise) avg 17 or more carries a game. And most are running behind better lines than we have on top of that.

Quote:
Mendenhall showed that he can either run it up the middle with enough speed to gain good yardage, or bounce it outside and turn the corner.
Redman and Dwyer have both shown the same. Redman is the best up the middle and fighting for yards and.....I dunno who I would call the best outside back. Mendenhall has more speed but as I pointed out, today Dwyer went outside for 10+ and Redman last week bounced outside for a 22 yard gain. So they have the speed to get it done.

The problem is that (in this sense) Haley is predictable. When it is Dwyer and Redman he always tries to shove it up the middle instead of mixing it up. So D's sit on it and can stuff it. Still, Redman fought hard today to convert 2 first downs even when they sat on it. And IMO that is the kind of guy we need. Someone who gets tackled forward instead of backward like Mendy.

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or an injury for Redman.
Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't he only had 1 injury that put him out 1 game?

Quote:
Coming down on Mendenhall the way he did was silly, when we have Wallace taking plays off, whining about not getting the ball, and dropping or fumbling all over. Ben calls out the OC in the press, and throws away our season, and there are zero repercussions there.
I still disagree about Mendenhall. That is the one thing he did handle right. Mendenhall lacks discipline and is too soft a runner. He wasn't getiting the job done and didn't show up for the team. I do agree however, that he didn't handle the others right. Besides his one move where he put Sanders and Wallace as equal on the depth chart (which was BS anyway) he just let everyone keep making mistakes.


@ZoneBlitzer - I just appreciate you reading and considering the argument. Thanks.
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:11 AM   #27
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Default Re: Our RB situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyphon View Post
Well, he is on my young guy list to improve so I don't have much too add. I guess we will see overtime what comes of him. I say he at least needs some more reps before making a final decision.



It really depends. Rythm is key for an RB. Now maybe those 2 don't go for 30 each but maybe you have 1 for say 10 and 1 for 20+ mixed in there. Coaches decide to run more and you end up with 20-25 carries for 100+

Obviously we are playing a lot of guessing here but still. The top 8 backs in the league (total yards wise) avg 17 or more carries a game. And most are running behind better lines than we have on top of that.



Redman and Dwyer have both shown the same. Redman is the best up the middle and fighting for yards and.....I dunno who I would call the best outside back. Mendenhall has more speed but as I pointed out, today Dwyer went outside for 10+ and Redman last week bounced outside for a 22 yard gain. So they have the speed to get it done.

The problem is that (in this sense) Haley is predictable. When it is Dwyer and Redman he always tries to shove it up the middle instead of mixing it up. So D's sit on it and can stuff it. Still, Redman fought hard today to convert 2 first downs even when they sat on it. And IMO that is the kind of guy we need. Someone who gets tackled forward instead of backward like Mendy.



Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't he only had 1 injury that put him out 1 game?



I still disagree about Mendenhall. That is the one thing he did handle right. Mendenhall lacks discipline and is too soft a runner. He wasn't getiting the job done and didn't show up for the team. I do agree however, that he didn't handle the others right. Besides his one move where he put Sanders and Wallace as equal on the depth chart (which was BS anyway) he just let everyone keep making mistakes.


@ZoneBlitzer - I just appreciate you reading and considering the argument. Thanks.
Redman was out for Cincy and Washington, and left for drives in other games, such as after his outside run in Dallas when he left limping. Dwyer went for 16 down the outside once and immediately took himself out because that gassed. This is my primary concern if you take Mendenhall out of the equation. If Redman is injured, Dwyer comes in and gets gassed, and then what? We stop running the ball because our "Feature" backs are worn out? Unacceptable. Yes, the best backs take 25+ carries. Dwyer has proven that 15-17 is his limit of endurance, and Redman has had trouble with injuries this year.

That just doesn't give me any faith in their ability to be a feature back. Compare these two to guys like Adrian Peterson, who puts up runs around the corner for longs of 48 and 82 yards, and averages 13.8 when he runs around the right edge. That's almost as much as Dwyers longest. I don't want to settle for our run game scraping by with these two, because that's what we did this year, and it screwed us over bad. I want a top 15 rusher out there, and Mendy has been that during his healthy seasons.
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:26 AM   #28
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Default Re: Our RB situation.

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That just doesn't give me any faith in their ability to be a feature back.
Ok. I will give you the injury thing can be a concern so we add some depth behind Redman. That is Dwyer at 2, Batch at 3 and Rainey as 4 or a new guy and Rainey to wideout as I suggested.

Then again, Batch has a bad history of injury as well so he may need to go regardless of potential. So I guess I am with you as far as adding depth but I stand by Redman as a starter unless injuries to become a major problem.

Quote:
Compare these two to guys like Adrian Peterson, who puts up runs around the corner for longs of 48 and 82 yards, and averages 13.8 when he runs around the right edge. That's almost as much as Dwyers longest.
It really isn't fair to compare to the best in the league. Even you say below you want top 15, not the best. Redman can easily be top 15 based on the numbers I see from the current top 15 backs and what he has done.

Quote:
I don't want to settle for our run game scraping by with these two, because that's what we did this year, and it screwed us over bad. I want a top 15 rusher out there, and Mendy has been that during his healthy seasons.
No. What screwed us over was how Tomlin handled the backs (not letting someone be the main starter) and injuries to the line which made us bottom 5 in the league in run blocking.

I stand by Redman being fine with a consistent role and a line that isn't terrible.
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