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Old 08-14-2006, 07:52 PM   #1
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Default Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

http://www.parentalguide.com/Documen...t_of_jesus.htm
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

So I guess the next question is, what's wrong with them NOT believing in Jesus?
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosca
So I guess the next question is, what's wrong with them NOT believing in Jesus?
because per the Old Testament, written by their own people, not believing in Jesus as the Messiah is incorrect.
I am Jewish myself. For years I took it for granted, because 99% of Jews say so, that Jesus wasnt the Son of God. I was led astray by culture and guilt. When I took the time to actually READ the Scripture, it became clear to me I was wrong.

People assume all Faith is "blind faith". And people can believe in whatever they want. But it is wise to know WHY you believe as you do. And it was placed on my heart to share this because leading people to the love of Christ and the truth is far more important than worrying about people you may offend along the way in this politically correct world.

I hesitated and didnt talk to my mother about this. Then she died. Souls are being lost every day. People have free will to reject it. But it is the responsibility of every follower of Christ to carry the message.
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Old 08-15-2006, 01:26 PM   #4
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

I think we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one. You say yours is the only one, Jews say theirs is the only one, Muslims say theirs is the only one, and the proof for all of them is the same; faith, and books written by men claiming to be divinely inspired by god.
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Old 08-15-2006, 01:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosca
I think we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one. You say yours is the only one, Jews say theirs is the only one, Muslims say theirs is the only one, and the proof for all of them is the same; faith, and books written by men claiming to be divinely inspired by god.

But was I wrong by laying out Scriptural reasons? I welcome a Scriptural response from a Jew or a Muslim.

It isnt Faith if you dont believe it to be the truth. My thread said "Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus". Offering reasons. Its out on the table to be countered.

But usually, the messenger is told he is being offensive, and the reasoning offered is never answered.

A major difference between Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Christians and Jews only disagree on who the Messiah is. Muslims want to annihilate Christians and Jews. hmmm
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Old 08-15-2006, 02:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

But if you lay out the argument that way, only allowing scriptural responses, then you have created a system of logic by which you cannot be challenged. If you allow ANY responses, then you complain that the messenger is being attacked. What if someone doesn't believe in any religion at all? All religious faith MUST be blind faith, because there is nothing other than that faith to offer up as truth. You point me toward this book, another guy points me toward a different book, and a third points me toward a guru, and six other people point toward their book or their shaman or their ashram. And looking at the world tells me something completely different. Pick one and believe it, but there's no reason your choice is any more valid than anyone elses', your faith is as well placed there as theirs is in what they believe.

Re: annihilation; Muslims want to annihilate Christians and Jews... 700 years ago Christians wanted to annihilate Muslims, 65 years ago Christians tried to annihilate Jews*. Now Christians want to annihilate Muslims again in retaliation. None have the higher moral ground, that I can see. You can argue that those Christians aren't true Christians, Muslims can argue that the terrorist fanatics aren't true Muslims, but you can't have it both ways.


Tom

*"God had been drafted into national politics before, but Hitler’s success in fusing racial dogma with a Germanic Christianity was an immensely powerful element in his electoral campaigns. Some people recognized the moral perils of mixing religion and politics, but many more were seduced by it. It was the pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics that largely ensured his success, notably in Protestant areas."

-- Fritz Stern, historian and refugee from Nazi Germany
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Old 08-15-2006, 02:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

I didn't take Mosca's post to be an attack on your original post - just an observation that religion and compromise exist in two very different worlds.

The basic premise of most religions appears to be 'believe in what we are telling you - or else spend eternity in the firey depths of hell - or an equivalent of hell'

To believe in one religion is to dismiss the possibility that other religions have a basis in reality.

Its healthy to have these debates out in the open, as you have shown.

NM
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Old 08-15-2006, 02:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 to be 4
But usually, the messenger is told he is being offensive, and the reasoning offered is never answered.
And where did I attack you ("the messenger")? I like you, I'd never consider attacking you. I did ask a question, and I did say that we'd have to agree to disagree, but I don't think I attacked you.


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Old 08-15-2006, 03:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosca
And where did I attack you ("the messenger")? I like you, I'd never consider attacking you. I did ask a question, and I did say that we'd have to agree to disagree, but I don't think I attacked you.


Tom

When did I say you attacked me? LITP said he didnt think you attacked me. But I never used the word attack. I said "usually the messanger is told he is being offensive..." and even then, I said "usually the messenger is told" i didnt say Mosca is attacking me.

another irony, you mentioned you cant debate scripture. Usually im told you cant debate blind faith. Which is it?
actually, you can certainly discuss interpretations of scripture, especially when the 2 parties, Christians and Jews, are different only in their interpretations of the same book!
the Old Testament. Jews wrote the Old Testament. Jewish leaders, along with the Romans said Jesus couldnt be the Messiah because he performed miracles on the sabbath.
they were basing an arguement on interpretation. While someone else could look at things in the same book to determine that Jesus was the Messiah. It is a very healthy discussion.

It serves the non-believers purposes to think that Christianity or any religion can only be "Blind Faith", leaving all the evidence and logic to everybody else. But once again when the most scutinized and authenticated book in history contains prophesies, and hundreds of them are fulfilled in one man, hundreds of years later, it makes a pretty good intellectual Case for Christ. That, AND personal spiritual experiences make up our faith.
Not to mention hundreds of witnesses to the Resurrected Christ who all went to torturous deaths instead of saving themselves by recanting their stories. Who would let themselves get tortured to death for a lie?

I grant you that Muslims can do try to do the same thing. And again, im open to a Muslim to find a different interpretation. And I agree, all religions have had their shares of murderers who did it in the "name of God". But generally Christians and Jews have renounced such behavior. Read some of comments by Arab leaders lately about the future of Israel?
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 to be 4
When did I say you attacked me? LITP said he didnt think you attacked me. But I never used the word attack. I said "usually the messanger is told he is being offensive..." and even then, I said "usually the messenger is told" i didnt say Mosca is attacking me.

another irony, you mentioned you cant debate scripture. Usually im told you cant debate blind faith. Which is it?
actually, you can certainly discuss interpretations of scripture, especially when the 2 parties, Christians and Jews, are different only in their interpretations of the same book!
the Old Testament. Jews wrote the Old Testament. Jewish leaders, along with the Romans said Jesus couldnt be the Messiah because he performed miracles on the sabbath.
they were basing an arguement on interpretation. While someone else could look at things in the same book to determine that Jesus was the Messiah. It is a very healthy discussion.

It serves the non-believers purposes to think that Christianity or any religion can only be "Blind Faith", leaving all the evidence and logic to everybody else. But once again when the most scutinized and authenticated book in history contains prophesies, and hundreds of them are fulfilled in one man, hundreds of years later, it makes a pretty good intellectual Case for Christ. That, AND personal spiritual experiences make up our faith.
Not to mention hundreds of witnesses to the Resurrected Christ who all went to torturous deaths instead of saving themselves by recanting their stories. Who would let themselves get tortured to death for a lie?

I grant you that Muslims can do try to do the same thing. And again, im open to a Muslim to find a different interpretation. And I agree, all religions have had their shares of murderers who did it in the "name of God". But generally Christians and Jews have renounced such behavior. Read some of comments by Arab leaders lately about the future of Israel?
Apologies if I misunderstood your meaning.

If I told someone that they were being 'offensive' then I would imagine I was 'attacking' and what they were saying.

Its rare that someone of a religious bent is willing to open up his faith for discussion - I applaud you for that.

Often its a case of "I believe in it and thats that".

NM
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