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Old 08-15-2006, 06:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

I misread your post; I read "as usual the messenger...", not "usually the messenger". I'm sorry. I did think it was out of character, you are a straight shooter and woudn't take offense that way. As I said, I enjoy sometimes agreeing with you and sometimes disagreeing with you.

I think scripture IS blind faith. Understand that I'm not criticizing it, only saying that it must be accepted as true by faith without proof (an argument that is one of the pillars of Christianity, btw; "faith vs works" and Thomas' requirement that Jesus PROVE to him that he is the risen lord, and Jesus' reply). As far as differing interpretations, the Aryan Nations use it to justify their hate-filled doctrine, and Quakers use it to justify their peaceful, pacifist creed. So yes, it is open to some mighty extremes of interpretation.

I'm one of those people who draws a line between the meaning of "believe" and the meaning of "know". In the Catholic mass, we sometimes do a call-and-response called the Profession of Faith; it concludes with the priest incanting, "This is our faith. This is what we believe." My feeling (and the message of John 20: 24-29) is that it is much more powerful to believe something without knowing it than it is to only believe it after requiring proof (and I think that you probably strongly agree). Therefore, attempts to ground Scripture in reality actually weaken its power. To accept it as blind faith is to accept it at full strength.

In the end, doesn't it come down to treating others with respect? And when I ask that admittedly leading question, I'm asking, isn't it the right thing to do to respect Jewish teaching regarding their religion? After all, they've had the same couple thousand years to analyze the same words, and they've come up with a different answer that seems to work well for them.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Although it can be seen as Christian to attempt to use the scripture as part of a logical argument to show that Jews are wrong to not accept Jesus, it can also be seen as an attempt to use scripture for unChristian actions such as persecution of Jews and those of other religions. In the end, everyone has to use their faith to temper what they KNOW to be right. Respect for others' religions is one of those things. To me, anyhow.


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Old 08-15-2006, 06:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them. (Samuel 22:40-42)...Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-22 )



In his second letter to Timothy, Paul confirms that Scripture is the infallible word of God: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)





However, Matthew apparently thought that Jesus contradicted Scripture's teaching of destruction of one's enemies, and taking an eye an eye, a life for a life:



Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)...Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. (Matthew 5:38-44)





Was Matthew mistaken about what Jesus said, or was Paul wrong about Scripture being the word of God? Either way, one of these writers must have been wrong. If not, why not?
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Old 08-15-2006, 06:31 PM   #13
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

i think when you study all major religions one seems to make the most sense. one does a better job of explaining mans age old questions even better than scientists can.

the koran, the torah and the christian old testament all start out the same with the 5 books written by moses. the jews for some strange reason are still waiting to complete their book and explain the prophesies within. mohammeds response was a day late and really seemed like a response to the rapid growth and belief in Christ.

i must say that God gave his beloved people of the tigris eupharates valley the gift of domestication, agriculture, civilization, written language and historical record keeping for a reason. in the nuclear age, there is a reason that the message of love proves to be more beneficial to our species than a message of hate and war. no man who lived back then to write a "story" that would be so gripping, foretelling, and encapsulating.

for those who ask another man for proof of a supreme being they will never find the answer they look for. for those who ask God they will never be denied. there are reasons why you hear the catchphrases "eyes being opened" and "hearts being opened" when one decides to take a leap of faith. theres a reason that the knowledge and understanding and calming sense of well being accompanies those with "blind faith".

the "blind faith" is just the 1st step in openning up to the truth. after that its not blind anymore. asking a christian to explain it is like asking the most knowledgable scientist in the world to explane how outer space can go on in all directions for ever and ever. to me believing that is just as much as blind faithas anything else.
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Old 08-15-2006, 06:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livinginthe past
Apologies if I misunderstood your meaning.

If I told someone that they were being 'offensive' then I would imagine I was 'attacking' and what they were saying.

Its rare that someone of a religious bent is willing to open up his faith for discussion - I applaud you for that.

Often its a case of "I believe in it and thats that".

NM
I think I have the blessing of living 42 years as a Non-believing Jew and since then being a believer in Christ. Seeing it from both sides makes me want to do more than the usual "your gonna all burn in hell" thing because I know how that pushed me away. Nobody should come to Christ out of fear. I didnt do it to get into Heaven or be accepted by anybody. I did it because, for one thing, it came to me by Grace, and because for me, the Lord deserves it. I did it because I was attracted by Jesus love. And the more I learned the more it made sense for intelligent reasons as well. When I got Born Again, I remember right away saying to God "Im not going to be the kind of Christian ive always seen. I dont know how you are going to do it, but show me how to walk it differently, not for Christians or Christianity, but for you" I want to relate to people Ive known, who didnt believe for the same reasons I didnt believe. Most Jews ive known in my family dont have a clue why they believe what they do, other than their parents expected it of them. I went to source, the Scripture, and I found more reasons for a Jew to accept Christ than to not accept Christ. I am always open to hear discussion about it. Ive been there. But when my focus got off the sloppy messengers and religion and onto Jesus himself, it became clear to me.
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Old 08-15-2006, 06:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest
asking a christian to explain it is like asking the most knowledgable scientist in the world to explane how outer space can go on in all directions for ever and ever. to me believing that is just as much as blind faithas anything else.
What a lot of people don't realize is that quantum physics, and by extension quantum astrophysics, are all mathematical intepretations of reality. I'm as die-hard a believer in science as you will ever find in your life, and this still just completly blows my mind. What happens is, a series of equations are used to describe the world; then those equations are used to predict, "What will happen if we try THIS?" Thing is, those predictions keep coming up right. The computers we are using to communicate are a perfect example of quantum technology in action. That's spooky as hell. Once you realize that two intertwined particles at different ends of the universe will act in concert, and no particle or planet or body can exist independent of the gravity of every other object in the universe, you start to understand that reality is really one big thing, not lots of discreet little things. Again, it's truly mind-blowing.

Is God in the equations? I have no idea. And the answer has no relation to the original question, but I liked your analogy. Even KNOWING stuff sometimes takes a leap of faith!


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Old 08-15-2006, 06:58 PM   #16
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livinginthe past
The basic premise of most religions appears to be 'believe in what we are telling you - or else spend eternity in the firey depths of hell - or an equivalent of hell'

To believe in one religion is to dismiss the possibility that other religions have a basis in reality.

NM

Picture varying religions as different "phone numbers" to the same parent. Except,...certain numbers will work for only certain individual's. The "secret to life" is finding which one is the correct one for YOU. Think about it,....if everyone had but a single way to contact this parent whom cannot fail,...existence,...at least in this physical realm,.. could not continue to function,.... as it needs all level's of the "food chain" (SO TO SPEAK) to exist.

Example,...you have two men,..both equaly devot and righteous, both Christian but yet one prospers while the other fails and suffers miserably. They're both honoring the same parent,..it's just that the latter is not using the correct number that was given to him at birth.

For the most part organized religion in all forms has been used as a doctrine of control and power by those whom have found what works for them. SEEK,... your own personal truth and respect the same such quest of others.


"Hail Caesar,....Hail the Black and Gold"

Oh yeah,...Living in the past,....you gotta be born in 76 ??
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:03 PM   #17
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets

Was Matthew mistaken about what Jesus said, or was Paul wrong about Scripture being the word of God? Either way, one of these writers must have been wrong. If not, why not?
very complex subject. from what ive learned (and this is from studying the bible as literature at unm, not at a church) is that their are many discrepancies in the bible. even the 1st 4 books of the new testament (which all tell pretty much the same story) have contradictions.

believe it or not this lends a bit of veracity. wouldnt it be a little suspiciou and agains human nature if 4 different authors told the exact same story. it would seem a bit contrived.

paul and peter had many differences. paul was a roman who prosecuted jews. peter was your typical jew.

to make it simple the laws of the old testament worked for quite a while but when judaism became a religion of elitism and measured by wealth God decided it was time to set things straight and send his only begotten son.

a simplified debate on this subject can be seen when peter and paul debated on whether one could eat pork or not and remain holy. peter believed sin was what you put in your stomach while paul preached that sin was what was in your heart.
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by 3 to be 4
I think I have the blessing of living 42 years as a Non-believing Jew and since then being a believer in Christ. Seeing it from both sides makes me want to do more than the usual "your gonna all burn in hell" thing because I know how that pushed me away. Nobody should come to Christ out of fear. I didnt do it to get into Heaven or be accepted by anybody. I did it because, for one thing, it came to me by Grace, and because for me, the Lord deserves it. I did it because I was attracted by Jesus love. And the more I learned the more it made sense for intelligent reasons as well. When I got Born Again, I remember right away saying to God "Im not going to be the kind of Christian ive always seen. I dont know how you are going to do it, but show me how to walk it differently, not for Christians or Christianity, but for you" I want to relate to people Ive known, who didnt believe for the same reasons I didnt believe. Most Jews ive known in my family dont have a clue why they believe what they do, other than their parents expected it of them. I went to source, the Scripture, and I found more reasons for a Jew to accept Christ than to not accept Christ. I am always open to hear discussion about it. Ive been there. But when my focus got off the sloppy messengers and religion and onto Jesus himself, it became clear to me.

Excellent, great post. It takes a lot of courage in this world to see clearly the Christian message, and to ignore all the ways people try to pervert it and twist it to their own advantage.

(I have no special insight into what that is, I'm not claiming that you've joined me. I'm a rat bastard doubting sinner and always will be, but I try my best.)

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Old 08-15-2006, 07:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosca
What a lot of people don't realize is that quantum physics, and by extension quantum astrophysics, are all mathematical intepretations of reality. I'm as die-hard a believer in science as you will ever find in your life, and this still just completly blows my mind. What happens is, a series of equations are used to describe the world; then those equations are used to predict, "What will happen if we try THIS?" Thing is, those predictions keep coming up right. The computers we are using to communicate are a perfect example of quantum technology in action. That's spooky as hell. Once you realize that two intertwined particles at different ends of the universe will act in concert, and no particle or planet or body can exist independent of the gravity of every other object in the universe, you start to understand that reality is really one big thing, not lots of discreet little things. Again, it's truly mind-blowing.

Is God in the equations? I have no idea. And the answer has no relation to the original question, but I liked your analogy. Even KNOWING stuff sometimes takes a leap of faith!


Tom
im glad you got my point. i have tried to understand the quantum physics and the mysteries of space and infinity are the things that have kept me up at night thinking the most. the big bang theory is so plausible (and i trully believe in it and evolution) i just believe that the big bang was when God snapped his fingers and said "let their be light. to me science and nature and the forces that make this world work are the forces of God. that thing that separates us from the rest of the organisms on earth is the proof.

to me one of the biggest wastes of an argument is creationism vs. evolution. people who believe man has been around for only 5000 years is kinda wack. science proves otherwise. how can you measure a day to God and a day or year to man when the days that God created the universe (6 days) were in place before the heavens and the earth were seperated or the sun and moon were created (a "day" is only relevant on earth. it is a measurement created by man. its all allegory.

and as for all the equations and math that helps explain the universe, while it kinda makes sense, i still cant figure out WHY little grooves on a piece of vinyl can replicate to perfection music or ones voice. some things i understand "why", but the "how" is the tricky part.
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:34 PM   #20
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

i still cant figure out WHY little grooves on a piece of vinyl can replicate to perfection music or ones voice. some things i understand "why", but the "how" is the tricky part.

actually it didn't,that's why we have cd's now...
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