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Old 08-15-2006, 07:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Here is some unsolicited reccomended reading for those of you interested in provactive challenges to contemporary Christianity.

Both are written by a one time Anglican Bishop named John Shelby Spong.

The first is called Why Christianity Must Change or Die. His thesis is that mankind has developed greatly in its ablility to deal with abstract thought over the last few thousand years. But he feels that Christianity relies too much on symbolic mythology that is no longer neccessary to communicate to the masses and as a result is killing itself off.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

The second book is called A New Christianity for a New world. This book outlines hispersonal vision of how the Christianity could morph into a more relevant religion.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...151221?ie=UTF8

A lot of his thoughts would be considered blasphemous by fundamentalists. So if you are a strict interprontationist of the Bible, the books are not worth your time.

Personally, whenever I have a belief about something I think is important, I like to invite challenges to my premise to see if my belief will stand up to the challenges. If my argument stands the test then I feel stronger in my convicitions. If it doesn't stand up, I then develop a new perspective. I found these books to be chock full of challenges to my Christian beliefs. If nothing else, they will lead to some good theological discussions if you can get someone else to read it along with you.
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

If we could actually know God, then God wouldn't be God. As knowledge advances, God becomes ever more mysterious and recedes farther away.

It used to be obvious that God was of the world; did you get struck by lightning? Then you must have displeased God, who called down his power unto you. Then Franklin proved lightning was a natural phenomenon, and gradually explanations for worldly events became the realm of science and knowledge, and God's realm became that of the abstract and unknowable.

Now, as science makes more and more claims on the unknowable, it is seen as an assault on God's realm again, when exactly the opposite is true; as we learn more, the questions explode exponentially. It just seems like an assault on God because it gets harder and harder to wrap our minds around the concepts; every answer seems to bring forth more questions. OK, so evolution is true; but then, on a molecular level, isn't it ASTOUNDING, the power of chemistry and physics and time, that has given forth this small microcosm of life? To try to use God's power to explain it is to belittle that power, not exhault it.

I say, explain the world as you will, because it is what it is. But the power of it, its essence will always remain distant. Interestingly enough, the scripture addresses this very issue, in the book of Job. By my reading, the key message is that the power of God will ALWAYS be unknown. Learn what you will, God shall always recede into the distance (sort of like the universe expanding, huh?) Job questions the meaning of his fate, and why it seems that God strikes at an innocent man. God's reply is that the world doesn't work that way...

Here the writer speaks figuratively of course, unless we agree that the earth and the world were actually built in the manner of a house:

1: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind:
2: "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3: Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you, and you shall declare to me.
4: "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
5: Who determined its measurements -- surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
6: On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone,
7: when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8: "Or who shut in the sea with doors, when it burst forth from the womb;
9: when I made clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10: and prescribed bounds for it, and set bars and doors,
11: and said, `Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?
12: "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place,
13: that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14: It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.
15: From the wicked their light is withheld, and their uplifted arm is broken.
16: "Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17: Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18: Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? Declare, if you know all this.
19: "Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and where is the place of darkness,
20: that you may take it to its territory and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21: You know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!

And of course God continues for 5 more chapters, but you get the point. And I think this is one of the cornerstone passages in the scriptures, one from which we can draw greater conclusions about the role of science and knowledge with respect to religion and Christianity (and of course Judaism, because Job is pure OT). "Learn what you learn, and regardless of its truth you will never know the end."


Tom

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Old 08-15-2006, 07:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
Scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them. (Samuel 22:40-42)...Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-22 )



In his second letter to Timothy, Paul confirms that Scripture is the infallible word of God: ?All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.? (2 Timothy 3:16-17)





However, Matthew apparently thought that Jesus contradicted Scripture's teaching of destruction of one's enemies, and taking an eye an eye, a life for a life:



Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)...Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. (Matthew 5:38-44)





Was Matthew mistaken about what Jesus said, or was Paul wrong about Scripture being the word of God? Either way, one of these writers must have been wrong. If not, why not?

That may be the most awesome question ive seen? Ive had the same thoughts about the idea of taking literaly every single word in the Bible as the infallible word of God and as Tony pointed out, we are dealing with humans and their interpretation. Im not qualified to give too much scholarly point by point answers to a questions like that, although you can bet im going to forward that to people i know so that i can get a better answer than i will give.
For me, when it doubt, i go with what Jesus said himself, and the New Testament over the Old, for the simple reason that chronologically it makes more sense to me. There was a new covenant as Jesus death and resurrection made some things in the Old Testament "old news". Sacrifice of animals for instance. No longer would that sacrifice be needed, no longer need for "atonement", as Christ died for our sin, past, present, and future, and wiped the slate clean. If a sacrifice was still needed, why did Christ die?
Also, the Sabbath. Sacred before, Jesus put it into perspective, Sabbath is to serve Man, Man doesnt serve the sabbath. in other words, dont tell God he cant perform a miracle because its Saturday. The Law was needed to establish Sin. Religious types turned the Law into God. Jesus came, took sin away. For those who accept. The Law is still needed to establish sin for those who dont accept. But it all changed when He died on that cross and 3 days later was resurrected. Christians are still expected to do the right thing, not because of knowledge of the law, but because of knowing right from wrong because of what Christ has done in their heart. We dont become better, we let God become bigger in our hearts.
this is incomplete and probably very confusing because im not Mr Bible debater. But your question challenges me to dig deeper and find the answers. I do know a couple of books that answer these questions better than I ever could. Written by 2 non-believers who sought out to journalistically prove that Jesus was not the Son of God. But they couldnt, and became Christians. Lee Stroebels "The Case For Christ" and anything written by Josh McDowell.

A lot of Old Testament stuff seems strange today. I myself, wrestle with this tithing idea and i know im in the minority but i dont see it proven in the Bible that 10% of your gross income must go to your church. Giving yes, and I give tons, wherever its placed on my heart. But to a church? so im open. i really am.
but i dont get diverted from the Big picture. From the Gospels. I look at the Old Testament for background and prophesy, the Gospels for Jesus words, Pauls letters for instruction, Revelation for further prophesy. Stick with the Psalms, Isaiah,Matthew, John, 1st Corinthians, and you'll be alright.

And dont give up if someone like me cant give you every answer. Im not the authority. But i know where to look for Him.
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk Believer
Here is some unsolicited reccomended reading for those of you interested in provactive challenges to contemporary Christianity.

Both are written by a one time Anglican Bishop named John Shelby Spong.

The first is called Why Christianity Must Change or Die. His thesis is that mankind has developed greatly in its ablility to deal with abstract thought over the last few thousand years. But he feels that Christianity relies too much on symbolic mythology that is no longer neccessary to communicate to the masses and as a result is killing itself off.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

The second book is called A New Christianity for a New world. This book outlines hispersonal vision of how the Christianity could morph into a more relevant religion.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...151221?ie=UTF8

A lot of his thoughts would be considered blasphemous by fundamentalists. So if you are a strict interprontationist of the Bible, the books are not worth your time.

Personally, whenever I have a belief about something I think is important, I like to invite challenges to my premise to see if my belief will stand up to the challenges. If my argument stands the test then I feel stronger in my convicitions. If it doesn't stand up, I then develop a new perspective. I found these books to be chock full of challenges to my Christian beliefs. If nothing else, they will lead to some good theological discussions if you can get someone else to read it along with you.
...says the dude with 666 rep points.
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest
...says the dude with 666 rep points.
Ok Tony...you did that on purpose...right????
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:02 PM   #26
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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...says the dude with 666 rep points.
Good point. I didn't realize I was bearing the mark of the beast for the moment.
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:03 PM   #27
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by 3 to be 4
That may be the most awesome question ive seen? Ive had the same thoughts about the idea of taking literaly every single word in the Bible as the infallible word of God and as Tony pointed out, we are dealing with humans and their interpretation. Im not qualified to give too much scholarly point by point answers to a questions like that, although you can bet im going to forward that to people i know so that i can get a better answer than i will give.
For me, when it doubt, i go with what Jesus said himself, and the New Testament over the Old, for the simple reason that chronologically it makes more sense to me. There was a new covenant as Jesus death and resurrection made some things in the Old Testament "old news". Sacrifice of animals for instance. No longer would that sacrifice be needed, no longer need for "atonement", as Christ died for our sin, past, present, and future, and wiped the slate clean. If a sacrifice was still needed, why did Christ die?
Also, the Sabbath. Sacred before, Jesus put it into perspective, Sabbath is to serve Man, Man doesnt serve the sabbath. in other words, dont tell God he cant perform a miracle because its Saturday. The Law was needed to establish Sin. Religious types turned the Law into God. Jesus came, took sin away. For those who accept. The Law is still needed to establish sin for those who dont accept. But it all changed when He died on that cross and 3 days later was resurrected. Christians are still expected to do the right thing, not because of knowledge of the law, but because of knowing right from wrong because of what Christ has done in their heart. We dont become better, we let God become bigger in our hearts.
this is incomplete and probably very confusing because im not Mr Bible debater. But your question challenges me to dig deeper and find the answers. I do know a couple of books that answer these questions better than I ever could. Written by 2 non-believers who sought out to journalistically prove that Jesus was not the Son of God. But they couldnt, and became Christians. Lee Stroebels "The Case For Christ" and anything written by Josh McDowell.

A lot of Old Testament stuff seems strange today. I myself, wrestle with this tithing idea and i know im in the minority but i dont see it proven in the Bible that 10% of your gross income must go to your church. Giving yes, and I give tons, wherever its placed on my heart. But to a church? so im open. i really am.
but i dont get diverted from the Big picture. From the Gospels. I look at the Old Testament for background and prophesy, the Gospels for Jesus words, Pauls letters for instruction, Revelation for further prophesy. Stick with the Psalms, Isaiah,Matthew, John, 1st Corinthians, and you'll be alright.

And dont give up if someone like me cant give you every answer. Im not the authority. But i know where to look for Him.
this just falls in line with the discussion of different interpretations. you may ask 10 different authorities on the bible ,and get 10 different answers. i just wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts on it. but does anyone fined it ironic how the different interpretations by the muslims koran is very similiar? one cleric teaches peace ,love and tolerance ,while the other teaches death to non believers...
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"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." -Thomas Jefferson

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Old 08-15-2006, 08:09 PM   #28
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by floodcitygirl
Ok Tony...you did that on purpose...right????
Nope, Tony was not the last person to give me rep. Its just a crazy coincidence. Or is it? Lets hope so.

Anyway, I did read recently that scholars are now saying that 666 has been unfairly impunged as Satan's favorite number. The correct number is now supposed to be 616.
Here is a link:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:13 PM   #29
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by Hawk Believer
Nope, Tony was not the last person to give me rep. Its just a crazy coincidence. Or is it? Lets hope so.

Anyway, I did read recently that scholars are now saying that 666 has been unfairly impunged as Satan's favorite number. The correct number is now supposed to be 616.
Here is a link:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134
lets bust him down to 616...
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“If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” ― James Madison

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." -Thomas Jefferson

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." - Thomas Jefferson

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Old 08-15-2006, 08:18 PM   #30
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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lets bust him down to 616...
i think i can do that is someone chips in a -15
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