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Old 08-15-2006, 07:25 PM   #31
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
Scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them. (Samuel 22:40-42)...Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-22 )



In his second letter to Timothy, Paul confirms that Scripture is the infallible word of God: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)





However, Matthew apparently thought that Jesus contradicted Scripture's teaching of destruction of one's enemies, and taking an eye an eye, a life for a life:



Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)...Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. (Matthew 5:38-44)





Was Matthew mistaken about what Jesus said, or was Paul wrong about Scripture being the word of God? Either way, one of these writers must have been wrong. If not, why not?
For me, this conflict reinforces why I can't believe that the Bible is a verbatim text of God's word. I think most of it is inspired by God. But is has been written, edited, and translated by fallible people who even at their best are destined to inject personal bias and screw things up. In a way that presents me with a great burden of trying to do my best to sort out what God is trying to tell me through the Bible and what I should filter as man's interference of that message. But I'd rather approach it that way instead trying to read each part as literal truth when I personally see contradicitions in the text.

Reconciling the seemingly angry, punative God of the Old Testament with the loving, nurturing God if the New Testament is something that I don't know I will ever fully understand in this life. But I have faith that it will all get cleared up for me some day.

By the way, kudos to 3tobe4 and Mosca for setting a tone in this thread so that religion (Christianity at that!) is being discussed openly by people with different beliefs - and no one is trying to belittle one another or call them names. Its a shamefully rare occurence in our society as far as I can tell.
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest
i think i can do that is someone chips in a -15
i got 3-5's...
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by tony hipchest
i think i can do that is someone chips in a -15
Ha! Master of Puppets has saved me from being satan's minion. 666, I rebuke thee.
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:29 PM   #34
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by Hawk Believer
By the way, kudos to 3tobe4 and Mosca for setting a tone in this thread so that religion (Christianity at that!) is being discussed openly by people with different beliefs - and no one is trying to belittle one another or call them names. Its a shamefully rare occurence in our society as far as I can tell.
I'm man enough to admit that it could have gone that way, but 3tobe4 won the day with his level headed replies. I was all set to challenge him for over-proselytizing, and he kept it on the high ground. Reps to him for that.


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Old 08-15-2006, 07:32 PM   #35
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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this just falls in line with the discussion of different interpretations. you may ask 10 different authorities on the bible ,and get 10 different answers. i just wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts on it. but does anyone fined it ironic how the different interpretations by the muslims koran is very similiar? one cleric teaches peace ,love and tolerance ,while the other teaches death to non believers...

a clearer thought came to me regarding your question earlier. What I believe Paul , and others who use that term "infallible" are saying, is that the Bible, Old and New T, are the inspired, infallible, words of God.
But we dealing with a new covenant when Jesus came. What was said in the Old Testament was true, and was infallible, and was the Law. But those just live by the Old Testament are missing a ton of new information. More was revealed as Man needed to hear more. Law was established to define sin. Then Jesus came to take sin away.
There is no contradiction to what Matthew and Paul had to say. What God had to say back in the day was from God, so Paul is right. But Jesus came to provide salvation and release from the Law for those who believed. So its an update so to speak, and Matthew is right. does that make any sense?
Thats why i get so annoyed by preachers, especially on TV, go on and on and on about Sin, and forget to mention its all washed away once we accept Christ. Thats why so many Christians are beaten down by guilt, thinking they arent good enough. Of course they are not. None of us will be good enough! Sin established that. We are all sinners, as humans we cant NOT be sinners. But the great news is that Jesus washes it all away. Otherwise, why did He die??

anyway. I LOVE this thread! Its good, as you say, to be open to challenge. thats how we seek and grow. And as A christian it makes my Faith stronger as im forced to think about these questions and find the answers
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:32 PM   #36
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Nope, Tony was not the last person to give me rep. Its just a crazy coincidence. Or is it? Lets hope so.

Anyway, I did read recently that scholars are now saying that 666 has been unfairly impunged as Satan's favorite number. The correct number is now supposed to be 616.
Here is a link:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134
Thanks anyway...but I have enough trouble trying to keep up with my reading about the "right team"! (lol)
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:36 PM   #37
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Ha! Master of Puppets has saved me from being satan's minion. 666, I rebuke thee.
that was just a part of our masterplan to knock you down to 616
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Old 08-15-2006, 07:38 PM   #38
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by 3 to be 4
a clearer thought came to me regarding your question earlier. What I believe Paul , and others who use that term "infallible" are saying, is that the Bible, Old and New T, are the inspired, infallible, words of God.
But we dealing with a new covenant when Jesus came. What was said in the Old Testament was true, and was infallible, and was the Law. But those just live by the Old Testament are missing a ton of new information. More was revealed as Man needed to hear more. Law was established to define sin. Then Jesus came to take sin away.
There is no contradiction to what Matthew and Paul had to say. What God had to say back in the day was from God, so Paul is right. But Jesus came to provide salvation and release from the Law for those who believed. So its an update so to speak, and Matthew is right. does that make any sense?
Thats why i get so annoyed by preachers, especially on TV, go on and on and on about Sin, and forget to mention its all washed away once we accept Christ. Thats why so many Christians are beaten down by guilt, thinking they arent good enough. Of course they are not. None of us will be good enough! Sin established that. We are all sinners, as humans we cant NOT be sinners. But the great news is that Jesus washes it all away. Otherwise, why did He die??

anyway. I LOVE this thread! Its good, as you say, to be open to challenge. thats how we seek and grow. And as A christian it makes my Faith stronger as im forced to think about these questions and find the answers
actually that's an excellent answer and makes perfect sence...you truley
are inspired by the holy spirit...thanks
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." -Thomas Jefferson

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." - Thomas Jefferson

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Old 08-15-2006, 08:01 PM   #39
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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actually that's an excellent answer and makes perfect sence...you truley
are inspired by the holy spirit...thanks
that means a lot to me that you say that, but as you say, all the Glory goes to the Holy Spirit if I was able to make a sensible answer to that terrific question.

Its like, in the beginning, in Genesis, there was no sin, and Adam and Eve were with God. then through sin, they and Man were seperated from God. While its true what was said at the beginning, its also true that later something changed. 2 different answers, both true.

I guess thats why there are Christians of different denominations, because things gets interpreted differently. But im non-denominational, because Paul taught that we are to be one body of Christ, each of us with different talents and gifts, but we are not to be divided.
The bottom line is if you believe Christ died for your sins, was the son of God, was raised from the dead, and opened the gates of Heaven to all that who believed, thats it, baby, you are in the body of Christ.
this sniping between Baptist and Catholic and Episcopalian and Presbytyrian etc etc is extremly unbiblical.
When the thief looked at Jesus and said dont forget me, Jesus didnt ask him to answer 20 questions, commit to a bible study group, go on 10 missions, and hand over his W-2's. He said "You will be in paradise with me today". This is consistant with all his encounters with people. His burden is easy. His yoke is light. All he wants is a personal relationship with us. The moment the thief believed Jesus was Lord, he had Salvation.
My moment was not when i said the prayer, or came forward in a church, or got Baptised.
It was after I told him in the Magnolia Mall in Florence,SC that I was ready to believe if he just showed me a sign. I went into the mens room and there was a tract on the sink that said "Are you Ready"? I started laughing, felt a peace and love rush over me and i said
"its you" and felt a wordless response that felt like God saying "There you are"
that was it. the rest is all learning and growing.
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:15 PM   #40
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Default Re: Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

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Originally Posted by 3 to be 4
that means a lot to me that you say that, but as you say, all the Glory goes to the Holy Spirit if I was able to make a sensible answer to that terrific question.

Its like, in the beginning, in Genesis, there was no sin, and Adam and Eve were with God. then through sin, they and Man were seperated from God. While its true what was said at the beginning, its also true that later something changed. 2 different answers, both true.

I guess thats why there are Christians of different denominations, because things gets interpreted differently. But im non-denominational, because Paul taught that we are to be one body of Christ, each of us with different talents and gifts, but we are not to be divided.
The bottom line is if you believe Christ died for your sins, was the son of God, was raised from the dead, and opened the gates of Heaven to all that who believed, thats it, baby, you are in the body of Christ.
this sniping between Baptist and Catholic and Episcopalian and Presbytyrian etc etc is extremly unbiblical.
When the thief looked at Jesus and said dont forget me, Jesus didnt ask him to answer 20 questions, commit to a bible study group, go on 10 missions, and hand over his W-2's. He said "You will be in paradise with me today". This is consistant with all his encounters with people. His burden is easy. His yoke is light. All he wants is a personal relationship with us. The moment the thief believed Jesus was Lord, he had Salvation.
My moment was not when i said the prayer, or came forward in a church, or got Baptised.
It was after I told him in the Magnolia Mall in Florence,SC that I was ready to believe if he just showed me a sign. I went into the mens room and there was a tract on the sink that said "Are you Ready"? I started laughing, felt a peace and love rush over me and i said
"its you" and felt a wordless response that felt like God saying "There you are"
that was it. the rest is all learning and growing.
well its true that all the glory and praise is to the lord,it was you who made the decision to except jesus into your heart. remember,he gives us all the choice.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." -Thomas Jefferson

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." - Thomas Jefferson

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