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Old 01-03-2013, 04:43 PM   #141
Riddle_Of_Steel
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

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Originally Posted by GoFor7 View Post
And those teams actually allow their QBs to go to work early in a game instead of playing Marty ball for the majority of the game and hoping the QB bails them out at the end...
You keep humping this "Martyball" thing like it is a cure-all or something.

Guess what? Arians let Ben run his sandlot crap more often and things were pretty much the same-- offense sputters for 3 and a half quarters before lurching to life in the last few moments of the game-- often too little too late.

How was Haley running a "Martyball" offense? Ben was having his best year to date until he reverted back to the sandlot QB that got him hurt against KC at midseason.

The train came off the tracks AFTER Haley started giving Ben more freedom to run the offense the way he likes to.

The simple fact remains--

* When Haley was completely in control of the offense:
6-3 record
Ben having career season and being mentioned in MVP discussions
Ben best at 3rd down conversions
Offense with 2nd ToP in the league (good thing, since our aged defense was not....ready to go in week 1)
Heath Miller given a larger role.

* After giving Ben more control:
4 of 5 Oline starters injured
2-5 record
Ben holds ball too long and gets crushed by Tamba Hali
Offense totally unable to score
Lots of fruitless deep attempts to Mike Wallace (like the fans wanted I guess)
Heath Miller starts to go unnoticed in favor of trying to fling it 50 yards to Mike "The Hands" Wallace to keep the fans happy.

This is very obvious if you are not a homer....
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:46 PM   #142
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

The ONLY THING Arians was better at than Haley-- was his opening drives.

Arians was really good at scripting an aggressive opening drive to put some points on the board. I don't think this Haley-offense has scored a single TD in the 1st quarter of any game this season (I am sure that is an overstatement, but I can't think of any right now).
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:47 PM   #143
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

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Harrison's off-the-field issues have never caused him to miss any playing time. He had a fight with his girlfriend, but took steps to resolve the matter before it even went to court.
He took anger management classes, made up with his GF, and only had to do some petty stuff for the court like probation or counseling because she dropped the charges.
I really do not want to go down the road of moral relativism where fans drag up Steelers players problems off the field to make it seem OK for Ben to do the same behaviour.

Rather than acknowledge that other players making mistakes off the field does not make it OK for Ben to do so... they will drudge up the past for the last 20 years airing all the Steelers dirty laundry just to take the focus off Ben. It gets really ugly really fast and if that happens the thread should be closed imo.

Let's worry about what players do on the field.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:48 PM   #144
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

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Source please.



Nope. Historically, Ben goes no-huddle late in the 4th quarter when we are losing. That was true under Arians, and it is true under Haley.



First off, I have NOT seen the Steelers "score lots of points" since we drubbed KC 45-7 in 2006. Routinely scoring 20 points or less is NOT "scoring lots of points" at all.

Secondly, I observed the exact opposite.

In the first half of the season, Haley was keeping a tight rein on Ben, and forcing him to go through his progressions on each play and get rid of the ball quicker.

The result? Ben was leading the NFL in 3rd down conversions, 2nd in ToP, we were starting to score more points, and Ben was in MVP conversations.

Then in the second half of the year, when Haley started listening to Mike Wallace and the stupid fans complaining about the lack of deep passing plays (despite the efficient offensive production we have not seen since 2004), he started giving Ben more leeway to run the offense.

The result? The usual Sandlot football-- sacks galore from holding the ball too long, injured Olinemen from trying to hold blocks for 9 seconds each play, lots of failed attempts at forcing the ball to Mike Wallace leading to even more picks and disasters, QB injured and out of the lineup for a month, and an offense that sputters until it coughs itself to life late in the 4th quarter of games.



I cannot imagine....

If after 2 or 3 offensive coordinators, you keep getting the same results-- maybe the problem is not so much the coaching?
I don't have a link to a source. I have heard dozens of NFL commentators and experts talk about this over the years.

Here's an interesting source for you Ben Haters. Let me know what you think of this source. http://www.steelerworld.com/fan-news...r-play-calling

Last edited by pczach; 01-03-2013 at 05:01 PM. Reason: link didn't work
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:53 PM   #145
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

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I don't have a link to a source. I have heard dozens of NFL commentators and experts talk about this over the years.
Fair enough.

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Here's an interesting source for you Ben Haters. Let me know what you think of this source.http:// http://www.steelerworld.com/...r-play-calling
Not a Ben-hater. He is still the best QB for the Steelers right now, but that does not mean he should be absolved of his share of the blame for poor play, nor does it mean that he is above criticism from the fans.

Ben has his flaws, and there are plenty of them.

Can you re-post the link? it did not work for me...
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:56 PM   #146
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

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I really do not want to go down the road of moral relativism where fans drag up Steelers players problems off the field to make it seem OK for Ben to do the same behaviour.

Rather than acknowledge that other players making mistakes off the field does not make it OK for Ben to do so... they will drudge up the past for the last 20 years airing all the Steelers dirty laundry just to take the focus off Ben. It gets really ugly really fast and if that happens the thread should be closed imo.

Let's worry about what players do on the field.
Agreed. I hear you.

While I get particularly irritated when I read about some of things these chumps do out in town (like Pacman Jones' "make it rain" incident that saw him slamming girl's heads off the dance floor by night's end), I for one do not look to NFL players for my moral compass, nor as an example of how to live my life. I pity anybody who does...

Except for the occasional egregious incident like I mentioned-- I am mostly concerned with what these fools do on the field. Not too concerned with defending their honor or rationalizaing their stupidity off the field.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:03 PM   #147
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

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Originally Posted by Riddle_Of_Steel View Post
Fair enough.



Not a Ben-hater. He is still the best QB for the Steelers right now, but that does not mean he should be absolved of his share of the blame for poor play, nor does it mean that he is above criticism from the fans.

Ben has his flaws, and there are plenty of them.

Can you re-post the link? it did not work for me...
I think the link works now.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:07 PM   #148
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

Here is a fun comparison: Haley's 2008 Cardinals (the last time he had a good QB - he was fired in KC because he was 5-8 with Cassell - he was standing in the way of their 2-14 record) vs Ben/Arians 2008 Steelers.

Haley's "Dink and Dunk" 2008 Offense

26.7 ppg 365.8 ypg 32nd rushing 2nd passing

Ben with Arians 2008

21.7 ppg 311.2 ypg 23rd rushing 17th passing

Ben with Haley 2012

21 ppg 330 ypg 26th rushing 14th passing


So in spite of having no rushing attack to speak of and the 19th ranked defense in the league the 2008 Cardinals make a superbowl run based on the strength of their passing game. The Cardinals had 3 1000 yard receivers that year. Warner throws for 4500 yards and 30 tds reg season and 1100 yards and 11 tds in the playoffs.

This is the OC Roethlisberger has manufactured a problem with? Really?

How many of you think Roethlisberger is going to have a career in coaching after he's done playing? Anyone?
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:08 PM   #149
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

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The Steelers routinely lead the league in points in the last two minutes of the first half. This is primarily when Ben goes no huddle, and controls everything that happens on the field. This is what is so baffleing about those of you that think he needs to be reigned in and strictly follow a rigid system. When he is allowed to call plays, make more line calls, and in general control all aspects of the offense, the Steelers score lots of points.

How is this not an obvious observation to all Steeler fans that watch the games?
Well because no huddle is pretty effective no matter who the offensive coordinator is.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:10 PM   #150
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Default Re: All these ditch Ben threads

thanks for the link

I will say though - I really don't want this strength to be emphasized even more as he ages - it just isn't enough anymore - I just can't agree with relying on improv

It is a strength of his, and I acknowledge it plenty of times - it just isn't enough for this offense to put up a lot of points consistently.

If they want to be truly dynamic on offense - there needs to be a plan and a belief in something bigger than your own abilities - people have to buy in - not just Ben. Ben's supporting cast did him no favors. If I haven't said that enough for some people - I apologize.
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