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An important history lesson for you TRUE Steelers fans!

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Old 08-15-2006, 03:31 PM   #1
Mosca
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Default Comment on this quote, please

"The radical right and the radical left see liberalism's appeal to reason and tolerance as the denial of their uniform ideology. Every democracy needs a liberal fundament, a Bill of Rights enshrined in law and spirit, for this alone gives democracy the chance for self-correction and reform. Without it, the survival of democracy is at risk. Every genuine conservative knows this."
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Old 08-15-2006, 03:50 PM   #2
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Default Re: Comment on this quote, please

Okay here is my take on that quote.

I took the liberty of googling it to see who it was attributed to - and it was Fritz Stern the guy you quoted in the other religious thread.

Anyways, I digress.

As much as liberalism has become a dirty word in the United States (I have had several people label me as liberal - thinking they were actually insulting me) you cannot form a cohesive, democratic government without it.

Everyone has their own values, their own belief system - some choose to base it around organised religion, others choose to base it more loosely around life experience and their 'inner person'.

Liberalism is fundamental in society because it ensures that everyone has a voice that can be heard and recognised.

Radical religion, or radical political beliefs are based upon the tolerrance of only your own idealogy with absolutely no room for debate or discussion.

Radicalism, if allowed to flourish, strangles the individuals ability to think and form opinion based upon personal experience and preference - instead it enforces a doctrine that cannot be deviated from.

Personally I see radicalism as a straight jacket for the brain - one which inhibits freedom of thought and expression.

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Old 08-15-2006, 04:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: Comment on this quote, please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosca
"The radical right and the radical left see liberalism's appeal to reason and tolerance as the denial of their uniform ideology. Every democracy needs a liberal fundament, a Bill of Rights enshrined in law and spirit, for this alone gives democracy the chance for self-correction and reform. Without it, the survival of democracy is at risk. Every genuine conservative knows this."
reason and tolerence is all relative.

When my kid gets to third grade, maybe earlier, they are going to teach her about sex, maybe earlier than that its fine for her be a homosexual, that evolution is fact, and thats shes an idiot for believing anything else, that "when" she starts having sex, she can talk to her doctor about anything at 14 and its none of our business, and that if ooops, she gets pregnant, its ok to just scrape it out, and that if anyone objects, THEY are intolerant.

Conservatives have sure done their fair share of lack of reason and tolerence. Most bigotry in this country has originated from conservative mentality. Sadly ,amongst many of my "claiming to be" Christian brothers and sisters too (see South). And you cant say a word against how the war in Iraq has been fought without being called un-patriotic. The first sentence of your quote had promise, as both extremes are pretty whacked in this country. But by the end of the quote it appeared to brand conservatives as the problem. There is plenty of blame to go around.
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Comment on this quote, please

Yep, the quote came from the same speech. It didn't apply to that other post (I was looking for something that would give weight to my point that Nazis claimed to be Christians, and even today the Aryan Nations use the bible to reinforce their credo), but I liked it because it gives the reason for the existence of liberalism. Liberalism isn't "leftism", it's tolerance for differing views. It gets vilified by ideologues because they have no tolerance, and it gets twisted by right wing ideologues because it allows tolerance for views they do not hold and they can shout the loudest.

Now, here is Mosca's corollary: A genuine conservative understands the need for a liberal philosophy, but a genuine liberal understands the need for action, the falsehood of believing that all ideas are of equal value, and understands that there is a reason change happens slowly. A true liberal respects conventional wisdom. It is folly to pursue an idea merely because it upsets the status quo, and it is death to not choose action at all. Think, reason, decide, and lead.

Liberals have been paralyzed by a lack of leadership and a lack of decisiveness. It's not enough to listen to all ideas, you still have to judge them, sort them, and act on what you believe.

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Old 08-15-2006, 11:02 PM   #5
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Default Re: Comment on this quote, please

The problem is the Liberal Democrat today is not the same as the Liberal Democrat of appox 50 years ago. Today's Liberal leans so far left, they are hard to separate from Socialists. The ACLU (founded by a Communist) created our political correctness which is adhered to by liberals. They need to get their act together. IMHO
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Old 08-15-2006, 11:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Comment on this quote, please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosca
"The radical right and the radical left see liberalism's appeal to reason and tolerance as the denial of their uniform ideology. Every democracy needs a liberal fundament, a Bill of Rights enshrined in law and spirit, for this alone gives democracy the chance for self-correction and reform. Without it, the survival of democracy is at risk. Every genuine conservative knows this."

LMAO...must be late......

God Bless America???

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Old 08-15-2006, 11:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Comment on this quote, please

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAH
The problem is the Liberal Democrat today is not the same as the Liberal Democrat of appox 50 years ago. Today's Liberal leans so far left, they are hard to separate from Socialists. The ACLU (founded by a Communist) created our political correctness which is adhered to by liberals. They need to get their act together. IMHO
excellent. my theory as well. The FDR,Truman,John & Robert Kennedy liberal has been replaced by the McGovern,Ted Kennedy, Clinton liberal that came of age in the 60's social revolution. old school liberals were progressive on civil rights but strong on defense and kind of normal on family issues. ( except in the Kennedy's cases, their personal lives)
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Old 08-20-2006, 05:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Comment on this quote, please

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 to be 4
excellent. my theory as well. The FDR,Truman,John & Robert Kennedy liberal has been replaced by the McGovern,Ted Kennedy, Clinton liberal that came of age in the 60's social revolution. old school liberals were progressive on civil rights but strong on defense and kind of normal on family issues. ( except in the Kennedy's cases, their personal lives)
True...today's liberal (and far left Democrats) are handcuffed by blind idealism. They are overtly reactionary and short on concrete solutions. This is why the majority of thinking America is turned off by recent Democratic candidates.

Hey, a utopian society where everyone holds hands and sing peace songs is fine and dandy after a couple of joints, but the reality of creating such a society needs to be better thought out...
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:15 PM   #9
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One particular example comes to mind. Welfare. Welfare was intended to be a stop-gap, a temporary solution that would enable a class of people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and begin again to contribute to society. Instead, it's become a legacy, a generational form of leeching away at the resources the productive members of society labor so hard for. Just the mention of reform draws giant red flags from the bleeding hearted and naive, but what has welfare accomplished? More importantly, where has it failed, and whom has it failed the most? Welfare has spawned exponentially increased numbers of victims from the originally relative small number of victims it intended to rescue.

Liberalism is fine, and it's important to have balance, but liberals are supposed to be the intellectual element of society. Show me the logic and greater good of creating multi-generational entitlement and I'll lend an ear...

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Old 08-21-2006, 08:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: Comment on this quote, please

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunami
One particular example comes to mind. Welfare. Welfare was intended to be a stop-gap, a temporary solution that would enable a class of people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and begin again to contribute to society. Instead, it's become a legacy, a generational form of leeching away at the resources the productive members of society labor so hard for. Just the mention of reform draws giant red flags from the bleeding hearted and naive, but what has welfare accomplished? More importantly, where has it failed, and whom has it failed the most? Welfare has spawned exponentially increased numbers of victims from the originally relative small number of victims it intended to rescue.

Liberalism is fine, and it's important to have balance, but liberals are supposed to be the intellectual element of society. Show me the logic and greater good of creating multi-generational entitlement and I'll lend an ear...
Maybe the accompanying press release said that welfare was a merely a stop gap - the way I see it, its more of a tool to keep people further down the food chain exactly where they are.

Im all for reform of the welfare state, both in the UK and the US, but reform is a very vague notion - what exactly are you suggesting?

Personally, i'd like to see an end to immigration to fill the jobs that natives of the country do not want to fill - instead people who are unable to find gainful employment should be forced to work these jobs or receive absolutely no state financial aid.

Everyone who attacks liberals sounds awfully defensive - seriously its like 'conservatives' have to get their comeback in first.

Less name calling and labelling and more constructive input is the order of the day.

NM
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