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Old 02-06-2013, 08:32 AM   #111
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

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Originally Posted by lloydwoodson View Post
Jerry Rice made the Probowl at age 40. He had 92 catches for 1121 yards and 7 tds. If Rice was a normal person he would have retired earlier than 42.

The argument is not whether Lewis is HOF worthy but whether he is the greatest MLB of all-time. I don't think he is the best MLB of all-time though you apprently disagree by comparing Lewis to the best football player to ever play the game.

Seau played in 1 less Probowl than Lewis and he played his entire career with much less help on the defensive side of the ball. Leslie O'Neal and Rodney Harrison were the only great players Seau played with and they were not together at the same time.

Meanwhile the Ravens roster has been loaded with Probowl players and Woodson, Sanders, Ngata and Reed all belong in the HOF. Suggs, Boulware, McAllister, Sam Adams, Scott, Adalius Thomas and Michael McCrary all made the Probowl while Lewis was playing.

Make sense?
Uh... no.

In his final three seasons, Jerry Rice had 63 (which isn't bad), 5, and 25 receptions.

Ergo, I misspoke by saying "three" (although, even those 63 receptions were not the best in the league). Let me amend my previous statement:

Is The Knife the best right now? No... but neither was Jerry Rice in his final TWO seasons.

The point is still the same: The Knife may not have been the best MLB this year, but he's still a HOFer.

I was comparing the final few seasons of Jerry Rice to the final few seasons of The Knife. Ergo, if the best player ever had subpar seasons at the end if his career, it should be expected that so would The Knife (& Hines Ward... & Franco Harris... et cetera). Make sense?
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:31 AM   #112
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

lloydwoosdon,

Regarding Seau versus The Knife versus Singletary versus Butkus... eh... I don't really care. That discussion does not really interest me.

My point is that your logic for eliminating The Knife (from the aforementioned discussion) is flawed.

Using your logic, with Seau:

Seau wasn't even a first or second team all-pro in his final season! Willis and Urlacher were better and so were Zach Thomas, Bart Scott, Farrior, etc. etc.

In fact, using YOUR logic, not even Jerry Rice should be considered the best ever:

Rice wasn't even a first or second team all-pro in his final season! Marvin Harrison and Chad Johnson were better and so are Hines Ward, Derrick Mason, Torry Holt, Randy Moss, etc. etc.

SUMMATION:
The Knife was not a Pro-Bowler in his final seasons... but, neither were a LOT of players. That does not eliminate them from the discussion of "best at their position"... otherwise... well... there wouldn't be very many options.

[Interesting tangent: how many players were selected to the Pro-Bowl in their final season?]
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:24 AM   #113
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

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Easily one of the best players to ever play the game. He would make 1st or 2nd team all-time at his position. A laughable comparison.
Your previous post stated that Jerome Bettis represents terrible things. Do you mean as a player or a human being? Please clarify your position and we can discuss further.

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I think you missed the "stab" at Lewis in the post you are responding too.

I wouldn't put Lewis down though, he'll get in and he belongs there. I think sluggermatt was making a joke. But it leads me to as how in the world Bettis getting in would hurt the integrity and standard of the HOF. It's not the Hall of Immortals. It's the Hall of Fame. People need to get over the idea that it's only for some untouchable godlike men who could do no wrong.

Bettis belongs there and he'll get there.
Yes I was being sarcastic. Ray Lewis does belong in the HOF, I don't think there is a question about that. Great player, motivator, and force.

I also believe Jerome is deserving. He is arguably one of the greatest RBs over 250 pounds who successfully ran between the tackles and showed signs of speed. It may take some time but I believe he will be elected.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:31 AM   #114
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

@ Teegre

Ray Lewis hasn't been at the top of his game since 2003. I never said Lewis doesn't belong in the HOF. What are you getting so bent out of shape for? You honestly think Lewis is the best MLB of all-time?! You are crazy.

Lawrence Taylor is to linebackers what Jerry Rice is to wide receivers. Ray Ray doesn't enter that discussion and I don't think Butkus does either.

Debo has forced 33 turnovers in the 6 seasons since he turned 29 and became a starter. Ray has forced 24 turnovers in the 9 seasons since he turned 29. Please don't pretend that Ray Lewis has maintained his dominance into his 30s because he really has not.

Ray Lewis averaged fewer than 3 forced turnovers per season for his career and he is the best MLB ever? Lewis was a tackle machine who played behind an amazing defensive line and in front of an amazing secondary.

Lewis is lucky all the tough old bastards who played before color tv broadcast Lewis' tears into homes across America didn't have their forced fumbles or sacks recorded. Imagine Butkus crying on tv

[YOUTUBE]zQsj3SaGlD4[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]ZxoOH60jwIE[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]CGZp6xP_59o[/YOUTUBE]
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:43 AM   #115
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

@teegre re: Jerry Rice

You are reading Rice's stats wrong. Rice had 30 receptions in his final season at age 42. 25 with Seattle and 5 with Oakland.

Rice actually averaged approx 60 receptions 800 yards and 4 tds over his final 3 seasons at ages 40, 41, and 42.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:06 AM   #116
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

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@ Teegre

Ray Lewis hasn't been at the top of his game since 2003. I never said Lewis doesn't belong in the HOF. What are you getting so bent out of shape for? You honestly think Lewis is the best MLB of all-time?! You are crazy.

Lawrence Taylor is to linebackers what Jerry Rice is to wide receivers. Ray Ray doesn't enter that discussion and I don't think Butkus does either.

Debo has forced 33 turnovers in the 6 seasons since he turned 29 and became a starter. Ray has forced 24 turnovers in the 9 seasons since he turned 29. Please don't pretend that Ray Lewis has maintained his dominance into his 30s because he really has not.

Ray Lewis averaged fewer than 3 forced turnovers per season for his career and he is the best MLB ever? Lewis was a tackle machine who played behind an amazing defensive line and in front of an amazing secondary.

Lewis is lucky all the tough old bastards who played before color tv broadcast Lewis' tears into homes across America didn't have their forced fumbles or sacks recorded. Imagine Butkus crying on tv
I couldn't see Butkus crying on TV, but I sure could imagine him making opposing players cry on TV.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:26 AM   #117
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

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Name recognition:
When you say a player's name, there is that instant "recognition."
For example, when one hears the name Jerry Rice, the words "best ever" pop into one's head. When you ask anyone, even the casual fan, they ALL know who "The Bus" is... and they remember a bruiser of a RB.

NO QB:
Bettis had NO QB to take the pressure off of him. He had 3.9 yards against eight (& nine) man fronts.

Ask Urlacher:
Bettis trucking Urlacher is iconic. Significant plays like that are revered & remembered... and, as a Steelers fan, that is a top-ten all-time play in Steelers history (and this is a team with many historical moments). If you disagree, look outside of the pressbox at Heinz Field (the box where Al Michaels sits)... and you will see a four foot by six foot photo of that play.
You will also see a large framed photo of that play in my Steelers room in the basement. That was the play that sent the team on it's SB run IMO.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:31 AM   #118
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

lloydwoosdon,

I do not care who the best MLB was.

My point, again, is that YOUR RATIONALE for excluding The Knife from the discussion of "best at his position" is the fact that he did not make the Pro-Bowl in his final year.

Neither did Jerry Rice. Neither did Seau. Neither did Dick Butkus. Neither did Lawrence Taylor. Et cetera.

I DO NOT CARE WHO WAS THE BEST MLB.

Again, Jerry Rice did not make the Pro-Bowl in his final two seasons... and he's still the best player ever to play, despite your asinine logic that a player can not even be considered a candidate for the best at his position if he did not make the Pro-Bowl in his final season.

I DO NOT CARE WHO WAS THE BEST MLB.

Your logic/rationale is what I have issue with.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:11 AM   #119
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

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You will also see a large framed photo of that play in my Steelers room in the basement. That was the play that sent the team on it's SB run IMO.
I've never met you, but I can already tell that you're my type of Steelers fan.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:33 AM   #120
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Default Re: Bettis NOT a Hall of Famer- Here's Why

If Bettis signature play is running over a linebacker, you are making my point. that may be his most famous play but was insignificant for hall of fame reasons.
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